Author Topic: Coming to a computer in front of YOU: macOS Sierra  (Read 17413 times)

xairbusdriver

  • Storm
  • *****
  • Posts: 3131
Re: Coming to a computer in front of YOU: macOS Sierra
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2016, 10:29:02 PM »
Another tidbit, the precursor for Excel was VisiCalc for Apple ][, the first spreadsheet app for personal computer. Didn't care for spreadsheets then, still don't. BORing. [rolleyes2] FileMaker is the way to view data(base/info). It even made a great page layout app!!! Even data fields can be dragged and dropped anywhere you want, [cheer] way before Pages (which was never intended to replace Word, BTW). [lol]
THERE ARE TWO TYPES OF COUNTRIES
Those that use metric = #1 Measurement system
And the United States = The Banana system

TechnoMonkey

  • Strong Breeze
  • ***
  • Posts: 127
    • EW9323
    • KTXARANS6
    • TechnoMonkeys Weather
  • Station Details: La Crosse WS-2315 / High Sierra Server / Mac Mini 2.3 GHz Intel Core i5/ 8GB Ram / OS 120GB SSD / Home Folder 500GB FireWire / DATA 8TB RAID 5 / 1TB TIME CAPSULE
Re: Coming to a computer in front of YOU: macOS Sierra
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2016, 10:35:43 PM »
My first spreadsheet was DynaCalc.

elagache

  • Global Moderator
  • Storm
  • *****
  • Posts: 6649
    • DW3835
    • KCAORIND10
    • Canebas Weather
  • Station Details: Davis Vantage Pro-2, Mac mini (2018), macOS 10.14.3, WeatherCat 3
I dream of things that never were, and ask why not? (Was: macOS Sierra)
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2016, 10:45:12 PM »
Dear X-Air, Herb, and WeatherCat technologists,

What I don't understand is why some here think the "desktop" is a suitable metaphor to force onto a tablet, much less a smart phone.

No that isn't my point at all.  My point is that iOS has no metaphors at all beyond incomplete ideas that some things are sheets of paper and so on.  My gripe is that no effort was made to look for such a thing.


Sorry Edouard. I called nothing a virtue. In fact there was no qualitative implication in my analysis, other than that Apple engineers were filtering out the rest to make use of the best of the best. What I described was the complex circumstances inherited in the marketplace, and the difficulty with making that inherent complexity fit a GUI metaphor based on objects on a desktop.

Your point is well taken but it is a loss for human civilization as a whole.  As the old saying goes: if you want to win the lottery at the very least you have to be willing to buy a ticket.  If computers aren't ball bearings, toilets, or some other interchangeable commodity - but infrastructure and effectively "language" out of which our civilization is made - then we all have a common interest to make the best of such things.  Would we allow ourselves to be hobbled by a version of English that was exclusively controlled by Apple computer?  Effectively we have allowed this to occur and we are all very much worse for it.

Your sadness is astounding, but resolute. But, if there is no metaphor that fits the current complex technology to make it more approachable by our parents, then there likely never will be. Both my parents are gone. Their ability to influence markets has gone with them. The market influencers are much younger than us, now, and they love iOS, even with its warts.

If the issues at hand were only old people, there would be very little to worry about indeed.  Robert Kennedy was fond of the quote: " I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?"  That our young people are addicted to these devices offers us absolutely no idea of how much better these devices night have been had we insisted on a more cooperative development process that involved more than private companies.  It isn't the old that I worry about but the young who lack the worldliness and commonsense to see the flaws in these devices and demand better.  There was a time when the craft of good writing was a virtue.  Young people have turned misspellings and broken grammar into a communication medium and think they can express their deepest most feelings that way.  As is true in so many things theses day: they are fooling nobody but themselves and they will be dearly sorry for it someday.

Edouard

Bull Winkus

  • Storm
  • *****
  • Posts: 783
  • 2013 iMac 2 x 27", OS Ver. 10.15.7
    • EW0095
    • KARHORSE2
    • WU for Horseshoe Bend, Arkansas
  • Station Details: Davis Wireless Vantage Pro 2, iMac 2 x 27"
Re: Coming to a computer in front of YOU: macOS Sierra
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2016, 12:44:18 AM »
Well Edouard, it's not a loss if it has never been, and you are talking about developing something that has never been, that exists only in the vaguest of terms. I'm not saying that it can't be done. I'm saying that we can't know if it can be done until after someone does it. And, while the young have a tendency to squander away their misspent youth, they also have a tendency to wander into maturity at some point. I wouldn't worry to much about them.

Nothing is ever as it should be, at least according to most people I know.

Best!
[cheers1]
Herb

elagache

  • Global Moderator
  • Storm
  • *****
  • Posts: 6649
    • DW3835
    • KCAORIND10
    • Canebas Weather
  • Station Details: Davis Vantage Pro-2, Mac mini (2018), macOS 10.14.3, WeatherCat 3
The power of controling information . . . (Was: macOS Sierra)
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2016, 11:38:52 PM »
Dear Herb and WeatherCat users who should be afraid of the power of big information managers,

Well Edouard, it's not a loss if it has never been, and you are talking about developing something that has never been, that exists only in the vaguest of terms. I'm not saying that it can't be done. I'm saying that we can't know if it can be done until after someone does it.

My complaint isn't that nobody succeeded, my complaint is that as far as I can tell, nobody even bothered to try.  In my mind that is a objection that is much more serious.  User-interface design is a very specialized business.  We can't shop around for better one if we don't like the ones offered to us.  What does the evidence behind iOS and Android suggest to you?  Apple came up with a hodgepodge user interface and Google who could have invested the brain power to come up with something far superior instead was content to imitate. This was precisely the moment when the competitive forces behind capitalism are supposed to drive innovation.  Well the economics failed to foster the excellence that supposedly the silicon valley is capable.  If these forces don't encourage these technology titans to try harder - exactly what is supposed to do it?


And, while the young have a tendency to squander away their misspent youth, they also have a tendency to wander into maturity at some point. I wouldn't worry to much about them.

Unfortunately that tendency to mature isn't simply a matter of biology - it also requires a culture that values maturity.  At least since the rise of Hollywood, the west has indulged in a dubious tendency to view the carefree days of young with too much longing.  What works out in movie rarely happens in real life and rarely are the errors of youth not get paid for.

The rise of silicon valley has put a troubling spin on this wishful hope that we can be young forever.  Hollywood dwells on youth, but the silicon valley is populated with young people who have been very narrowly educated in a discipline that is not even related to the physical world - much less the human one.  Steve Jobs was deeply effected by the little time he spent at Reed college.  The vast majority of silicon valley engineers are very expert in a very narrow aspect of technology.  Most went to a lot of trouble to avoid learning anything that wasn't focused on their passions and/or paychecks.  Such people simply haven't been exposed to the broader ranges of human experiences to understand many things about what is rightfully called human wisdom.  Worse still, their technical training encourages a black and white view of many things and their success quickly goes to their head.  While the typical geek may be terrorized by social situations, they nonetheless think extremely highly of themselves and have an unrealistic conception of their problem solving skills.

So the world now finds itself with a group of individuals who are poorly suited to dealing with the extremely complex and tangled nature of human problems, but through their control of technology have the capacity to exert enormous forces on society.  Organizations like Facebook have already admitted to controlling the information that their users have access to.  They have no choice, if that information isn't filtered, it becomes overwhelming and will cause people to leave Facebook.  The 64-dollar question is - HOW - Facebook manipulates those filters.

Facebook has been already accused to making access to conservative information more difficult.  Even without any intent, Facebook could be causing their users to shift their political views to the left, simply through the process by which friendship networks interact with the very geeks who provide this technology.  Facebook is collecting huge amounts of data on their users, if they were aware of a shift toward the left - would they do anything about it?

Even if you are a Democrat, this sort of a scenario should send chills down your spine.  Democracies can only function if there is a viable opposition.  Without it, there is no way for the voters to object to the current government.  The effects can be anything from government gridlock, to voter apathy, to extremism.  We are observing all three at the moment.  Could companies like Facebook, Google, and even Apple be unwittingly unraveling core foundations of western civilization?  If they were, do they have the sort people working for them that could understand the implications of how they package information and find remedies?

The rise of big information companies move their role out of simply economics.  They are having an effect on our social and political lives as well and at the moment we are powerless to understand what sort of manipulations such institutions may be causing on the public - even those which are completely unintended and unanticipated. 

We are facing a dangerous moment in our world that makes the monopolies around 1900 pale in comparison.  Thus far, there isn't massive public outcry demanding transparency in what these information titans are doing with the information they collect.  I do hope that there isn't some sort of intentional process of deception.  However, I am very worried that these companies don't employ the sort of people with the wisdom and worldliness to realize what are the unintended consequences of this "brave new world" of information.  Thus far, larger society has been too focused on the benefits of information technology to look closely at the potential harm.  Worse still, we have gone along with myth that "geeks" are somehow super-genius, rather than demanding that they deliver on what they claim to be capable of - like well thought out user-interfaces.   Can we reign in these information titans?  Can we afford not to?

Edouard

Bull Winkus

  • Storm
  • *****
  • Posts: 783
  • 2013 iMac 2 x 27", OS Ver. 10.15.7
    • EW0095
    • KARHORSE2
    • WU for Horseshoe Bend, Arkansas
  • Station Details: Davis Wireless Vantage Pro 2, iMac 2 x 27"
Re: Coming to a computer in front of YOU: macOS Sierra
« Reply #50 on: June 27, 2016, 05:28:25 AM »
I understand and agree with the Orwellian implications of media companies controlling the slant of disseminated information. ABC, CBS and NBC have been doing just that for years with impunity. With the addition of Fox, MSNBC and CNN, we now have twice as many news organizations doing it. However that wanders quite afield from the subject of whether a GUI is as good as it can get.

Personally, my only real objection to iOS is the complete loss of user connection with any files or data being created. The new paradigm Apple pushed out with iOS was an opaque relationship with the file system, where to lessen the required understanding by the operator, the software was entirely responsible for the data. Well, that's great until something goes wrong with the software, and with most 3rd party software, things go wrong every time there is a system update.

Here's an example. I had an app on my iPhone called Gas Cubby that tracked my fill ups and maintenance. It reportedly even backed up to the Cloud. Over about a year, I build a very large maintenance dataset around two vehicles and was about to add a lawnmower, pressure washer, air compressor and leaf blower, when Apple pushed out a system update. The program crashed, and it was months before the little company was able to release a fix. However, the fix was incomplete, since there was an incompatibility somewhere that caused the backup system to fail. All my data was lost, and there was nothing I could have done to prevent it since the entire management of datasets in iOS is completely opaque to the user.

 [cheers1]
Herb

xairbusdriver

  • Storm
  • *****
  • Posts: 3131
Re: Coming to a computer in front of YOU: macOS Sierra
« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2016, 07:14:03 PM »
To all those discouraged and disappointed in current User Interfaces:

Perhaps we can spare 26 bucks and get direct access to someone who works in UI/UX design. It might help alleviate those "as far as I know" holes. [tup]
Good UX process, step by step: For beginners (and those who need a refresher) O'Reilly Community, Thursday, June 30, 2016 10:00am PT. Of course, you'll have to be willing to listen to a younger, possibly slightly more experienced, member of the community. That is often my biggest learning deterrent... [blush]
THERE ARE TWO TYPES OF COUNTRIES
Those that use metric = #1 Measurement system
And the United States = The Banana system

elagache

  • Global Moderator
  • Storm
  • *****
  • Posts: 6649
    • DW3835
    • KCAORIND10
    • Canebas Weather
  • Station Details: Davis Vantage Pro-2, Mac mini (2018), macOS 10.14.3, WeatherCat 3
Looked into this while at college (Was: macOS Sierra)
« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2016, 10:26:59 PM »
Dear Herb, X-Air, and WeatherCat social observers,

I understand and agree with the Orwellian implications of media companies controlling the slant of disseminated information. ABC, CBS and NBC have been doing just that for years with impunity. With the addition of Fox, MSNBC and CNN, we now have twice as many news organizations doing it.

Yes your point is well taken and sadly as you say instead of having much hope of cutting through the biases we now are drowned in different biases.  The task of making sense of the news source is a very difficult one indeed.  My concern though is slightly different.  None of us have enough time to to carefully shift through the possible sources of information.  So we all have to rely to some degree on computer software to thin out the information we are seeking.  Whether it is Google, Facebook, or MSN, the owners of that software have an understanding of how they prune our information that we are not being given access to.  It is bad enough to cope with unreliable sources, but now there is a second level that is just as opaque. 


However that wanders quite afield from the subject of whether a GUI is as good as it can get.

Agreed, but my point wasn't whether or not there is some ideal possibility out there, my complaint was over a complacency that seems rampant in the silicon valley.  In the early days of computers, the need to make computers easier to use was a matter economic necessity.  If computer were going to be adopted, people needed to have an easy enough experience.  In effect, we have been "trained" to put up with the geeks way of doing things, so now they can get away with sloppy user-interface design.  In order to feed our addiction to technology, we put up with whatever they throw at us.

Clearly companies like Apple are making money, but it is a very sad change from the days when Steve Jobs truly was concerned about giving users of Apple products a top-notch experience.  Being the best in a business is no achievement when your competition even more mediocre than yourself.

Personally, my only real objection to iOS is the complete loss of user connection with any files or data being created. The new paradigm Apple pushed out with iOS was an opaque relationship with the file system, where to lessen the required understanding by the operator, the software was entirely responsible for the data. Well, that's great until something goes wrong with the software, and with most 3rd party software, things go wrong every time there is a system update.

It is a different objection but I also agree with this one like 1000%!!  Given that many people have become comfortable dealing with the inner working of a computer, it is nothing short of an insult that Apple does not provide a "power user" mode so that we can cope with problems like this.

In way the two objections put together really add up to a double disappointment.  On the one hand, iOS deprives us of the one familiar paradigm we are used to: the inner workings of a computer.  On the other hand, it doesn't have any other unifying paradigm.  It is a GUI, but one that simply must be learned by rote.  Sorry Apple and Google, but I expected more from you guys.

Perhaps we can spare 26 bucks and get direct access to someone who works in UI/UX design.

I'm sure there are guys who really try hard, but my fear is what motivated my complaints in the first place.  I concerned doing my PhD in user-interface design, so I know something of its intellectual foundations.  It is clear to me that those foundations are being violated.  I can't be certain I understand why, but the lurking fear is that user-interface designers no longer feel that "doing it the geek way" is any impediment for the general public.  It is true that most of us have had to learn a lot about how IT technology works, but relationships should always be a two-way street.  The general public has been forced to learn a lot about how geeks do things.  Are geeks making the effort to understand how the general public actually lives out their lives?

I while working on my PhD, I collaborated a little bit Brigitte (Gitti) Jordan who sadly died just last month of cancer:

http://www.lifescapes.org/

At the time Gitti was working at Xerox PARC and Institute for Research on Learning.  She was working on how companies like Apple could reach out to understand how people actually use technology in their daily lives.  Sadly, it is clear that Apple, Google, Facebook, and so on never did grasp these methodologies.  If they had, the road to the Apple TV would not have been nearly so rocky.

Edouard

Bull Winkus

  • Storm
  • *****
  • Posts: 783
  • 2013 iMac 2 x 27", OS Ver. 10.15.7
    • EW0095
    • KARHORSE2
    • WU for Horseshoe Bend, Arkansas
  • Station Details: Davis Wireless Vantage Pro 2, iMac 2 x 27"
Re: Coming to a computer in front of YOU: macOS Sierra
« Reply #53 on: June 28, 2016, 06:26:49 AM »
R.I.P. Brigitte Jordan, PhD. The world is not a better place with your passing, and your work will succeed you for years to come.
Herb