Author Topic: Coming to a computer in front of YOU: macOS Sierra  (Read 17435 times)

Weatheraardvark

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Re: Coming to a computer in front of YOU: macOS Sierra
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2016, 12:49:14 AM »
I get it. But the tune the Pied Piper is playing makes me want to follow him.

The little stuff interests me.  No way that the update will make me svelte again or dance around again. What it will do help me get rid of the bloat that is now and will be off my computer. that irritating yellow others file maybe to figure out what is the problem and to reduce the stored crap without terminating the program.

I was over at the apple store today.  went to every imac they had there and checked the storage. of course it was wonderful.  The only thing I can think of to make my bloat is the other stuff I added after the initial stuff Apple put here.

I am hoping that when I uninstall/delete stuff they go away with the app.

What I don't care for is that if I drag something from the documents folder the program makes a copy of it. maybe that is a safety thing.  If I drag something to the icloud or an external graph,  it stays on the mac until I dump it.

To paraphrase My Fair Lady when Henry Higgins sings "oh why can't a mac be more like a pc?"
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xairbusdriver

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Re: Coming to a computer in front of YOU: macOS Sierra
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2016, 02:22:23 AM »
Quote
What I don't care for is that if I drag something from the documents folder the program makes a copy of it. maybe that is a safety thing.  If I drag something to the icloud or an external graph,  it stays on the mac until I dump it.
I sincerely think you need to start a new thread in the General Computing Forum (which is where this thread is) to get answers to these types of questions. [cheer] Much of the benefit of forums is the ability to keep different topics in different threads; think the vast array of shelves in a library. If all books were on one huge shelf, it would become impossible to find anything, even if there was a workable index. Similar situation on our now huge hard drives; if we don't create a system of directories that makes sense to us, we'll end up with everything in a few huge repositories and have to rely on search functions to find things. [computer]

This, and most other 'tech' or 'help' forums, depend on people placing similar questions and related posts in separate "threads" so they can be searched easily and logically read by others in the future. [tup] Mixing topics in one thread even makes it difficult to look at the index and decide if one might contain information related to an enquiry. This thread was originally about a future OS that we've only seen glimpses of as yet, but we are now deep into discussing the details of what and how recent Systems work. One never knows what will follow from one post to the next or if they will even be related to the original topic. There are many here who are willing and able to answer most any question about the Mac, hardware or software, but few will expect to see those questions in a thread entitled "macOS Sierra". [banghead]

Thanks for considering my opinion. ;D
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Steve

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Re: Coming to a computer in front of YOU: macOS Sierra
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2016, 04:30:27 AM »
@weatheraardvark,

There is a freeware/shareware application called Grand Perspective that scans your drive and gives you a visual representation of files that are taking up space. Kinda neat to see how much she some that you don't really think about occupy.

And unlike the days of old, simply deleting an application does not get rid of all the cruff left behind. There are preference files, application support files, logs, Internet plugins, and more. One good way to see what files are associated with an application is by using Clean My Mac or similar applications. CMM has an uninstall routine that lets you see associated files and determine if you want to remove them. It also searches for and lists orphan files in case you've already deleted an application but not the remaining files.

Steve
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Bull Winkus

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Re: The big idea behind the Xerox Alto. (Was: macOS Sierra)
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2016, 09:07:09 PM »
Dear X-Air, Weatheraardvark, Herb, and WeatherCat IT historians,

Perhaps it is a lost cause, but I'll try to make one last attempt to appeal toward something genuinely lofty and beneficial in user-interface design.

Do any of you guys remember the "desktop paradigm"?  You are staring at it as you read this posting.  It is the Mac OS foundation that made the Mac different and was so special that Microsoft had to steal in Windows.  But you really appreciate the big idea behind the desktop user-interface?

Before the Alto, and the refinements in the Apple Lisa, computers were driven by commands typed into a console.  Everything had to be learned by rote memorization.  At best the command names had some relationship to what they were doing, but how many of you would realize that mv stands for move a file in UNIX?

The guys at Xerox PARC undertook a very difficult task.  They decided to try to come up with a way that someone who had no understanding how a computer operated to nonetheless be able to operate a computer.  Their solution was to create a desktop "virtual reality."  The functionality of say moving a file would be emulated by a process that an office worker physically carry out on a desk.  To move a file, you physically drag the file just as you would move a document from one place to another on a desk.

The desktop user-interface was hardly a perfect recreation of a desk, but it was much easier to pick up than UNIX or MS-DOS.  The project of abstracting the counter-intuitive functionality of a computer into an everyday environment people were familiar with utterly changed computing and made it accessible to just about anyone.  Yes, the early Mac could be used by grandmothers.  Today's Macs aren't nearly as friendly to elderly.

As far as know, there isn't any sort of everyday environment paradigm for iOS like there was for Mac OS.  Sadly it is now clear to me that even Steve Jobs didn't fully appreciate what made the Mac so special.  iOS is full of clever tricks, but you simply need to learn them.  There isn't any sort of human experiences that you can turn to in order to infer how the iPhone or iPad should work.  It is a graphical user-interface, but it is just as arbitrary and contrived as UNIX and MS-DOS. 

The silicon valley is supposedly the place of "big ideas."  However, the status of smart phone operating systems makes a sad reality clear - the silicon valley has run out of big ideas.  If Apple and Google couldn't exceed the brilliance of Xerox PARC researchers by creating a smartphone GUI every bit as elegant as the desktop computer interface - clearly those engineers aren't as good as they have lead us to believe.

Edouard

Well, Edouard, there is another way to look at that, as I'm sure you already know. "Their [The guys at Xerox PARC] solution was to create a desktop "virtual reality."" Some say that invention is more discovery than invention. In that instance, the symbolic metaphor, between desktop activity and abstract file housekeeping within a storage device, already existed. The guys at Xerox PARC were bright enough to notice.

In this view of invention and discovery, it might be possible, given the extensive complexity added to the digital landscape by multiple devices of different sizes and functions together with their interconnection at multiple junctions as determined by legacy processes evolving with changes in usage profiles, that there is no discoverable metaphor to be applied. Put another way, we're in unknown and hitherto unexplored territory here with the explosion of popularity in digital technology in this century. The language is confusing, and redundant. The potential for criminal exploitation is high, and the full extent of the technology's potential is still unknown. Any GUI is going to be inadequate. So, they added Siri, and much research is being done to replace the, now old and inadequate concept of a GUI, metaphor with a new UI that is for the time being a hybrid of GUI and VUI (Voice User Interface). To make VUI work, though, a lot of work is being done in AI & ML (Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning).

However, we are still in transition. There is still much to be done, and it appears that Apple's engineers are willing to adopt what they perceive to be the best of the best as these methods appear. Which might explain many of the new features in Sierra.

 [cheers1]
Herb

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Re: Coming to a computer in front of YOU: macOS Sierra
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2016, 09:46:41 PM »
Your first premise was correct. LOST CAUSE on me.

I get it.

So... how are things coming on any new improvement on an already great product?
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elagache

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Leaving the common person behind (Re: Big idea behind Xerox Alto.)
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2016, 11:21:18 PM »
Dear Herb and WeatherCat armchair user-interface researchers,

Well, Edouard, there is another way to look at that, as I'm sure you already know. "Their [The guys at Xerox PARC] solution was to create a desktop "virtual reality."" Some say that invention is more discovery than invention. In that instance, the symbolic metaphor, between desktop activity and abstract file housekeeping within a storage device, already existed. The guys at Xerox PARC were bright enough to notice.

I think you are missing the real benefit that the desktop metaphor provided.  People without any insights as to how a computer actually worked could operate a computer and accomplished tasks.  My Mom never did understand how a file system works and she gets in real trouble every now and then.  Still, she has been using a Mac since the late 1980s and would be extremely unhappy without a computer.  It her way to keep in touch with her relatives and friends in France.  The big idea I was trying to advance is that the Mac allowed the common people to use computers who otherwise would never be able to understand what was going on.

In this view of invention and discovery, it might be possible, given the extensive complexity added to the digital landscape by multiple devices of different sizes and functions together with their interconnection at multiple junctions as determined by legacy processes evolving with changes in usage profiles, that there is no discoverable metaphor to be applied. Put another way, we're in unknown and hitherto unexplored territory here with the explosion of popularity in digital technology in this century.

Unfortunately, what you are calling a virtue is a vice by any other name.  Before Apple, computers were strictly in the realm of nerds and geeks.  Thanks to Apple and the desktop paradigm, people were able to learn enough about computers that many people could purchase, setup, maintain, and manage a computer.  The desktop paradigm was enough of a window into how computers actually worked that most people were able to figure out the complexities underneath.  Still the virtual environment served as the "shallow end of the pool."  Without it, people would be drowned in the complexity.

Today people are drowned the complexity and the silicon valley throws everything and kitchen sink at the general public.  Not simply is the public asked to beta-test buggy software, the public is now the user-interface guinea pigs.  The very complexity is driven in part by the open market and the wild west nature of silicon valley.  While competition might provide better products in terms of speed, storage capacity or efficiency.  How on earth can the general public be asked which is the best user-interface?  Especially when the question isn't even really asked.  Whereas once products really were scrutinized by user-interface engineers, today products have multiple user-interfaces and it does not appear much thought is given as to how they are supposed to work together.

Devices that use the human body as a pointing and control device desperately need to be designed in a way that is consistent with how human beings actually use their fingers, hands, and minds.  iOS is frustrating because it is way too easy to attempt to do one thing and end up doing something else.  Worse, on iOS your pointing device can interfere with the task you are trying to perform.  When using a mouse, the cursor is always in view - trying to use your hands forces you to be at the very spot you are trying to work on.

Sadly iOS suffers from its piecemeal and incremental creation.  Today's iPhones and iPads have so much more processing capacity than the first iPhone.  If iOS had been designed from the ground up with this sort of power in mind - what would the user-interface look like?

This is one of those sad moments where I plainly see that profit and novelty are working to the genuine detriment of humankind.  It isn't that a real effort has been attempted to develop the same sort of analogies that the desktop user-interface provided to get us out of the command-line.  Xerox PARC was free to explore their ideas because nobody could profit from personal computer yet.  Is there any attempt to create a cooperative effort between industry, research institutes, academia and government to actually see what could be done?  The answer is obviously no.  Companies like Apple want their innovations to remain secret, even if as a single company it cannot do the sort of research needed to solve hard problems like what should be the best paradigm for a device controlled by our own hands.

As a result, we get mediocre products that are heavily biased by the geek culture, lacking in the broader perspective that say academics could bring to such technology.  Are we worse off because of it?  Honestly, can there really be any doubt?  :(

Edouard

Weatheraardvark

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Re: Coming to a computer in front of YOU: macOS Sierra
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2016, 11:46:13 PM »
my next computer will be a PC
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xairbusdriver

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Re: Coming to a computer in front of YOU: macOS Sierra
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2016, 12:07:31 AM »
What I don't understand is why some here think the "desktop" is a suitable metaphor to force onto a tablet, much less a smart phone. In case you haven't noticed, no one make a mobile device that even has a mouse. The trackpad on early MPR's was a poor substitute. Gestures have been around longer than the iPhone. But Laptops are exactly where the 'pointing device' interface was developed. And Apple wasn't even the first to do that!

BTW, people are now not chained to desks, anyway.

@ Edouard, did you ever read the linked article from TidBITS?
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Bull Winkus

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Re: Coming to a computer in front of YOU: macOS Sierra
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2016, 02:27:09 AM »
Quote
Unfortunately, what you are calling a virtue is a vice by any other name.

Sorry Edouard. I called nothing a virtue. In fact there was no qualitative implication in my analysis, other than that Apple engineers were filtering out the rest to make use of the best of the best. What I described was the complex circumstances inherited in the marketplace, and the difficulty with making that inherent complexity fit a GUI metaphor based on objects on a desktop.

Your sadness is astounding, but resolute. But, if there is no metaphor that fits the current complex technology to make it more approachable by our parents, then there likely never will be. Both my parents are gone. Their ability to influence markets has gone with them. The market influencers are much younger than us, now, and they love iOS, even with its warts.

 [cheers1]
Herb

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Re: Coming to a computer in front of YOU: macOS Sierra
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2016, 07:29:34 AM »
my next computer will be a PC

Just start up Boot Camp and install Windoze.

Weatheraardvark

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Re: Coming to a computer in front of YOU: macOS Sierra
« Reply #40 on: June 25, 2016, 06:07:33 PM »
Naw,  iF a PC is because many of the programs I rely on,  are Windows OS.   I have  had to completely change my mind set for over 40 years, learn new tricks and the realization that the television and movies, which show primarily Macbooks that the folks are using  are the thing, the direction to go.

In reality, if you are looking for technical programs,  there are not a lot out there for the mac.  For example,  Weatherlink for PC is very good compared with Weatherlink for Mac.

There is no comparison between Microsoft Excel to Apple Numbers, or Word to Pages.   Microsoft fortunately was smart enough to grab on to this issue.  The documents, spreadsheets are universal documents that work on both platforms.

Dual platform might be the way to go, but not for this camper.  My wife  may get a new computer, givng up her Vista OS  and I will latch on to  it when she discards it.  Vista will run what I need to run and I will use my Mac for other endeavors as I have a lot invested in it.

I have learned both systems and in reality those on the silver screen,  are on facebook, Firefox and Twitter. 

It is sad, that this has occurred and probably will be the trend, but I don't give a rats ass .
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Re: Coming to a computer in front of YOU: macOS Sierra
« Reply #41 on: June 25, 2016, 06:24:50 PM »
I use parallels desktop on my macbook pro which lets me seamlessly use Mac or Windoze programs on the fly as I need.  As to Office, I use the Mac version.

xairbusdriver

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Re: Coming to a computer in front of YOU: macOS Sierra
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2016, 07:15:53 PM »
 [tup]
Quote
BTW, you may want to change the default spel chequer database or you'll constantly be changing Mac OS into the new and improved macOS.
Turns out it's not in the Aple Spel Chequer. I had installed a TibBITs collect in Typinator! Corrected it so it won't now change "macOS" into "Mac OS"! Now, I'm ready for the Fall unveiling! [lol]
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Weatheraardvark

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Re: Coming to a computer in front of YOU: macOS Sierra
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2016, 08:14:28 PM »
I use parallels desktop on my macbook pro which lets me seamlessly use Mac or Windoze programs on the fly as I need.  As to Office, I use the Mac version.
   when I am up and running, I have SecuritySpy running, Weathercat, Quicken and my email and of course bloat Firefox.  I have to have the horses .  By having the PC, I can run the  other stuff and keep the Mac doing its thing happy.
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Steve

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Re: Coming to a computer in front of YOU: macOS Sierra
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2016, 09:10:39 PM »
Microsoft fortunately was smart enough to grab on to this issue.  The documents, spreadsheets are universal documents that work on both platforms.

A fun little tidbit. Word was available for Mac four years before there was a Windows version.
Steve - Avon, Ohio, USA


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