Author Topic: Should Touch Bar be incorporated into future WeatherCat versions?  (Read 2754 times)

Felix

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i know a lot of us use an older, dare I even say legacy, computer to run our WeatherCat software but I'm curious if anyone thinks there's anything useful to be gained by incorporating Apple's new Touch Bar technology. I'm even wondering if maybe we'll see a Touch Bar incorporated into future external Apple keyboards since it apparently uses a dedicated chip associated with Touch Bar and Touch ID to run things.


Anything in particular you'd like to see in that Touch Bar menu when you have WeatherCat selected?

https://developer.apple.com/macos/touch-bar/   (Read the Human Interface Guidelines)

xairbusdriver

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Re: Should Touch Bar be incorporated into future WeatherCat versions?
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2016, 01:31:50 AM »
Never heard of it!  [blush]
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Blicj11

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Re: Should Touch Bar be incorporated into future WeatherCat versions?
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2016, 01:49:46 AM »
That Touch Bar presentation this morning was fascinating to me. I think it is a revolutionary tool. I wasn't thinking about WeatherCat whilst watching but thanks for inviting us to ponder the idea.
Blick


elagache

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Allow some time for ecosystem to pass judgement (Re: Mac Touch Bar)
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2016, 11:33:30 PM »
Dear Felix, X-Air, Blick, and WeatherCat technology observers,

i know a lot of us use an older, dare I even say legacy, computer to run our WeatherCat software but I'm curious if anyone thinks there's anything useful to be gained by incorporating Apple's new Touch Bar technology.

I just took a quick look at the Touch Bar and honestly it concerns me.  My problem with it is that it adds another user-interface element that is by its intent without a paradigm for how a user is to approach it.  Because it is without any particular content, it could be used very differently by software developers depending on their applications needs.  For a user this could be a nightmare.  It is hard enough to cope with the increasingly sloppy implementations of user interfaces for the Mac and especially iOS.  Now gestures would have to be learned by rote in order to make the most out of a given piece of software.

Another concern is out of another important design paradigm: minimalism.  The Touch Bar can clearly be used as say the mouse is used now.  So given a situation where some sort of analogue adjustment needs to be made (say scaling a drawing) which user-interface tool should be used?  The mouse, the Touch Bar, both?  Will developers simply choose what they personally prefer.  Will the user-community have any say as to how this new way to interact with the Mac will be used?

Before my PhD went in other directions, I spent some time studying man-machine interfaces and considered making that my dissertation.  It seems to me that a lot of careful thoughtful research is getting ignored in the race to come up with the next "in thing."   Xerox PARC put a lot of thought into the user-interface we all rely upon: the mouse.  Apple has the money to get the best academics money will buy.  It isn't enough to come up with the next user-interface that geeks will love.  Geeks seem to forget but they are a very small minority and the rest of the human population needs to be comfortable with their creations or they have failed the human race.  Alas, empathy for the common man isn't not a geek's strong suit either.

Oh well, . . . . . Edouard

Blicj11

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Re: Should Touch Bar be incorporated into future WeatherCat versions?
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2016, 11:46:54 PM »
Edouard, my friend, it pains me to see you suffer so needlessly with every technology change from Apple. All of your problems will go away if you just give in to the dark side of the force and return to Micro$oft Windoze, where they are still trying to find a worthy successor to DOS.  ;)
Blick


xairbusdriver

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Re: Should Touch Bar be incorporated into future WeatherCat versions?
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2016, 02:16:34 AM »
I may be even farther behind my young friend Eduoard in be discouraged by new technology. I still have no idea what "Touch Bar" is nor what its purpose is. That only link I've seen is to a static page with lots of hype and absolutely no real info, not even a stick drawing!  [lol2]

A good example of what Edouard is talking about is the electronic controls on automobile dash boards. There is practically no common interface. The main idea is to have the most buttons possible and make the have multiple physical methods of action; push, nudge, roll, hold, etc. Sure, one can, eventually, learn how many of the controls work and what most of them actually control... assuming you have time to study the 573 page manual just for the console. That manual is now usually larger than the "Operators Manual"! Seems some 'engineers' have lost sight of the purpose of the vehicle. [rolleyes2]

Without being too complicated, what is the main purpose of "Touch Bar"? Even more important, what is the problem it is supposed to solve? I know I could probably find these answers on the interweb, but I have too  many other things to do today, tomorrow, etc.
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Weatheraardvark

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Re: Should Touch Bar be incorporated into future WeatherCat versions?
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2016, 05:15:26 AM »
Sure, since there isn't a plethora of software for MAC.   

I am not going to fork out for a new MAc,  but it would be something nice to work toward.
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Felix

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Re: Should Touch Bar be incorporated into future WeatherCat versions?
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2016, 09:49:16 AM »
I see the 1Password folks are about to wet their pants over Touch Bar although I think developers are going to find much better ways to use the capabilities than what's in this AgileBits blog. I want more than just a link to a capability I can already access with a keystroke. If I'm going to take my eyes off the screen to look down at the Touch Bar and move my hand off the keyboard to the Touch Bar, it better be meaningful and save me time.


https://blog.agilebits.com/2016/10/28/having-fun-with-touch-id-and-the-touch-bar-in-1password/

xairbusdriver

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Re: Should Touch Bar be incorporated into future WeatherCat versions?
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2016, 04:13:51 PM »
Thanks for a link with at least some graphic display of "Touch Bar". Now that I have a hint of what this thing is, I can pontificate as a true expert. cmu:-)

Apparently, part of the display is reserved by Apple, just like the menu bar and the Dock. And that space seems to be a fixed width? And, I assume, a fixed height.

That fixed width, as well as the fixed height, is obviously a limitation. That's why we have problems with tiny screens on "smart" phones. The 'solution' seems to be making the info there "context sensitive". My question is, how does the "Touch Bar" know what the context is? I suspect that is based on input from whatever the user wants to do, which is based on the page the user has active and where the user has positioned the cursor, which is still controlled by a "mouse". So... why is it easier/better/more efficient to change ones focus from the screen to a small, often changing, narrow, inconsistent mini-screen with fixed size icons/text?

Strangest thing about this is that it's not device-size independent! Surely it's not indicative of the famous iDevice builder (previously named Apple Computer) thinking about real computers again! [rolleyes2] [computer]

"Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should." 'Wrong way' Corrigan
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wurzelmac

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Re: Should Touch Bar be incorporated into future WeatherCat versions?
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2016, 05:05:46 PM »
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should." 'Wrong way' Corrigan

 [tup]
Reinhard


elagache

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High tech tower of babel. (Re: Touch Bar)
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2016, 11:12:06 PM »
Dear Blick, X-Air, Weatheraardvark, Reinhard, Felix and WeatherCat technology observers,

Edouard, my friend, it pains me to see you suffer so needlessly with every technology change from Apple. All of your problems will go away if you just give in to the dark side of the force and return to Micro$oft Windoze, where they are still trying to find a worthy successor to DOS.  ;)

Well Microshaft hasn't been sitting on their laurels.  They are also trying to reinvent the PC in surprising ways.  Microsoft unveiled this week a new PC called Surface Studio.

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-studio

There is a ComputerWorld article that claims Google, Apple, and Microsoft just "saved" the PC with this sort of technology:

http://www.computerworld.com/article/3136710/windows-pcs/how-google-apple-and-microsoft-just-saved-the-pc.html

Alas, I couldn't disagree more with the author and on the contrary he proves my points in disturbing ways.  For starters what is "killing" both the PC and the Mac is that they have become way too difficult to maintain.  Without touching the user interface, what Apple and Microsoft should be working on is trying to make things easier "under the hood."  Just as an example, a personal computer should have a completely bullet-proof and very easy to use backup system.  Setting up Time Machine is already asking a lot of many users and implementing the "DFW signature" backup strategy is beyond 90% of computer users.

However my gripe really comes into focus when you compare Apple's Touch Bar with Microsoft's Surface Studio.  They are radically different approaches to bringing the sort of tactile user-interface from mobile devices to the personal computer.  So which should prevail?

My fear is two fold.  First, the marketplace isn't always the best way to determine the best technology.  There are lots of factors that influence why a technology is ultimately adopted and sometimes the best design loses out.  For example, it is now commonly believed that Betamax was the better VCR form than VHS, but VHS won because of temporary conveniences.  When it comes to user-interface, it is really important that the better system be adopted.

That brings me to concern #2.  There is something desperately needed in user-interfaces and that is standardization.  Just as we need a common language, customs, and conventions like driving on the right side of the road, the same is true of Information Technology.  It is fine to have cars that use gasoline, diesel and electric power plants, but it would not be okay if you had to learn to drive all over every time you bought a new car.  Could someone with a new MacBook with the Touch Bar walk over to the Microsoft Surface Studio and have any idea how to use it?

Since my days as an academic, I've seen a looming problem that has received very little attention as far as I know: where is the boundary between technology and shared culture?  Returning to the car example, auto makers are free to make all the innovations they please so long as we don't have to learn how to drive all over again.  The Touch Bar does require learning again how to interact with the computer and Surface Studio is an even more extreme example.  The silicon valley has an right an obligation to innovate, but they have a social contract to respect the culture of those who depend on that technology in order to express themselves.  It is something like the problem with Apple trying to replace the hand gun emoji with a water pistol but on steroids.

Perhaps we do need a transformation of the PC user-interface into one that involves direct contact of the screen (perhaps not.)  I really don't think it is the most pressing problem needed to keep the PC vibrant in our techno-culture.  Nonetheless, the process by which this transformation occurs should not be a naked battle of techno-giants.  Such a process would not serve the very people upon whom their profits come from - the ordinary consumer.

There are only two solutions and neither seems likely at the moment.  Instead of a battle over propriety technology, the large technology companies should accept that reasonable standards are needed for this new technology and voluntarily create a trade organization that would work with say academia, government, consumer groups and so on, so that this new technology would be uniform enough that the average user would be comfortable with it.  The alternative is that angry consumers would call upon the government to get involved to straighten out the chaos.

Sadly what seems all to clear is that all the major silicon valley companies behaving like sophomores when they should be demonstrating that they truly possess wisdom about the innovations they are trying to shove down our throats.  There is saying from one of the Murphy's law books that hits the nail on the head:

Society is like a mule, not a car, if pressed too hard it will bolt and throw off its rider!

Those in the silicon valley should learn from such earthy wisdom lest they would end up getting thrown down into that very earth!  ;D

Cheers, Edouard