Author Topic: Surprises in Rain-X SDS information.  (Read 15955 times)

elagache

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Surprises in Rain-X SDS information.
« on: January 03, 2017, 12:12:49 AM »
Dear WeatherCat station caregivers,

Some of us have gotten into the habit of applying Rain-X on our rain gauge collector cones to improve the accuracy of rain collection.  One of our cars started to have windshield wiper chattering and it appears that Rain-X product build-up is at least partially to blame.  Because of this, I looked into the chemistry of Rain-X and products intended to remove it.

I started by looking at the Rain-X product sold to remove Rain-X: Rain-X X-treme clean.  This is the only product that can be used to reliably remove Rain-X build-up. Here is a link to the SDS:

https://www.rainx.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Rain-X-Xtreme-Clean.pdf

I got a shock when I looked at the ingredients.  Only three are listed: water, 2-Amino-2-Methylpropanol (a pH stabilizer,) and Aluminum Oxide.  Aluminum Oxide is one of the hardest abrasives known to man.  So much so that is used as an alternative to diamonds in some industrial applications:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_oxide#Abrasive

So that makes it clear there is exactly one way to remove Rain-X and that literally to grind it off.  Even the manufacturer of Rain-X has no chemical process to remove it.  That puts those of us using Rain-X on our collector cones in something of a difficult situation.  Almost all collector cones are plastic and removing the Rain-X might well remove the top layers of plastic as well.  It isn't clear that excessive Rain-X is a problem on collector cones like it is on windshields, but it is an unpleasant surprise.

At this point I turned to original Rain-X water repellent.  Here is the SDS:

https://www.rainx.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Rain-X-Original-Glass-Treatment.pdf

I was in for an even nastier shock.  The main ingredients listed in the SDS are: Ethanol, Acetone, Isopropyl Alcohol, and Sulfuric acid!  Given those ingredients, I have no idea how it creates a water-repellent surface.  Rain-X is considered a carcinogenic under OHSA and California?s prop-65 regulations.  Now obviously these chemicals are in small enough concentration that they are unlikely to do any harm, still this is a nastier product than I had imagined it to be.

If you are using Rain-X on your automobiles, you might consider switching to Aquapel.  While Aquapel is significantly more expensive, it appears to be a better choice for windshields on a number of grounds: easier to apply, lasts longer, and no problems of excessive build up. Unlike Rain-X, Aquapel not regulated as potentially carcinogenic, so that might be worth something in terms of peace of mind.  Unfortunately, I don't think Aquapel will work on plastic, so it isn't an alternative for rain gauge collector cones.

So just some unexpected information on Rain-X.  I think after reading this, you will (as I will) handle the stuff a bit more carefully from now on!

Edouard


Blicj11

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Re: Surprises in Rain-X SDS information.
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2017, 04:10:56 AM »
Thanks for sharing the results of your research Edouard.
Blick


xairbusdriver

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Re: Surprises in Rain-X SDS information.
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2017, 02:58:51 PM »
"Reading lists of ingredients can be dangerous to your health!" :)

Anxiously awaiting your report on Aquapel, along with a 50% discount coupon! :P

Chemistry is only one of the 5-credit hour classes I failed! :-[ I had always figured that Rain-X merely filled the spaces between the "glass molecules" with a type of very high density of "oil". However, I think I've only actually used Rain-X twice in my life. Perhaps that's been one of my healthier choices! :o
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elagache

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Alternatives out there. (Re: Rain-X SDS information.)
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2017, 12:01:19 AM »
Dear Blick, X-Air, and WeatherCat fans of slick . . . . .

"Reading lists of ingredients can be dangerous to your health!" :)

Well, I did feel a bit betrayed.  I've been using Rain-X since the 1980s.  It certainly seemed harmless enough!

I had always figured that Rain-X merely filled the spaces between the "glass molecules" with a type of very high density of "oil".

I had assumed Rain-X was a silicone-based product.  Silicone has the same sort of water repellent properties.

Anxiously awaiting your report on Aquapel, along with a 50% discount coupon! :P

Well, since Aquapel doesn't have any applications for weather instruments, I don't know if there is that much interest.  In a sentence or two I prefer it for cars that are garage kept.  It does last the entire rainy season here in California.

What got me into this mess is that we have one car that is kept outside.  Of course the windshield gets dirty all the time and I was looking for a way to clean and renew the water repelling shield on the surface.  So I started using the Rain-X 2-in-1 cleaner and water repellent.  Unfortunately, that product has clearly started to build up on the windshield and is making the wipers chatter even worse!  So today's chemistry exploration was for products to remove Rain-X!  Even that had some surprises in store.

There is at least one other rain repellent product out there from Griot's garage.  When I have some time I'll try to look up its SDS and see if it is a more user-friendly product that could be used on our rain gauge collector cones.

Cheers, Edouard  [cheers1]




Felix

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Re: Surprises in Rain-X SDS information.
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2017, 10:24:34 PM »
Edouard, any thoughts about a non-stick polymer like Sno-jet Spray?


I buy it by the gallon and have used it on my snow blower impeller and discharge chute for years with good results.


As I've written in these Davis collector cone coating threads in the past, I also use it on my weather station. No complaints, it beads up raindrops nicely and sure prevents snow from sticking to the cone and helps the rain collector heater keep up with snowfalls as long as they don't exceed a couple inches/hour.

elagache

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Sno-jet similar to Aquapel - should work. (Re: Rain-X SDS)
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2017, 11:04:03 PM »
Dear Felix and WeatherCat armchair chemists,

Edouard, any thoughts about a non-stick polymer like Sno-jet Spray?

Well since you asked, you can look at the Safety Data Sheet for Sno-jet Spray.  Home Depot's website has a copy:

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/0e/0e56f590-ab4b-4e05-8250-457823414156.pdf

There is nothing in the composition that is carcinogenic, but clearly it is flammable in a way that demands caution.  One of its active ingredients: "Petroleum distillates, hydrotreated light" is at least similar to Aquapel.   The other ingredient - Naphtha - is a paint thinner.  You definitely don't want to inhale the stuff, but it shouldn't be any more dangerous than a can of spray paint.

As I've written in these Davis collector cone coating threads in the past, I also use it on my weather station. No complaints, it beads up raindrops nicely and sure prevents snow from sticking to the cone and helps the rain collector heater keep up with snowfalls as long as they don't exceed a couple inches/hour.

I see that you can buy it in reasonably-sized spray cans, so it does look practical even for those of us who will never have to shovel snow.  So yes indeed, if anyone is looking for a less nasty product to apply to your rain gauge collector cone, Sno-jet does look viable.

Cheers, Edouard

P.S. If you want to switch from Rain-X to something else, you'll need to remove the Rain-X to get the best results.  According to the "car guy" world, mild kitchen cleaners like Bon Ami and Bar Keepers Friend should do the job.

elagache

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More water repellent info. (Re: Rain-X SDS)
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2017, 11:27:45 PM »
Dear WeatherCatters with slick collector cones,   8)

I finally have solved the problem of chattering wipers on the car that is left outside.  It turned out that indeed there was a buildup of Rain-X and that does cause the wipers to encounter more fiction.  While I was trying to figure out how to solve this problem, I found this comparison web article:

http://windshieldwiperguide.com/rain-repellent-reviews-a-windshield-glass-treatment-comparison/

It turns out there are 3 different strategies to repel water.  Rain-X as it turns out is depositing a some sort of a silicone layer.  How its ingredients do this - I have no clue.  Aquapel is a fluorinated petroleum distillate.  The fluorine allows for the compound to bond to the silicates in the glass.  That's why Aquapel lasts longer than Rain-X.  What makes it good for windshields should make it not work on plastics like rain gauge collector cones - which are plastic.

There is a new technology that applies an nano-coating.  This, in principle, bonds even closer with the silica particles in the windshield than flourinated compounds.  However, as the author of the comparison noted, nobody has made a clear demonstration of this superiority.

Just to completely muddy the waters, I found pehaps the ultimate earth-friendly water repellent: Green Earth Technologies G-Clean Hydrophobic Rain Repellent

Checking out the SDS it appears you could almost drink the stuff without hurting yourself:

http://www.getg.com/docs/MSDS/MSDS_G-Clean_Rain_Repellent.pdf

However, this stuff may also be intended for glass and not work on plastic collector cones.

I have one more tidbit related to all this.  At least for windshields, the best cleaner is the original 1886 formula of Bon Ami:

http://www.bonami.com/index.php/products/powder_cleanser/#original-1886-formula-p

It has exactly two ingredients: tallow soap and feldspar.   However, while feldspar is a mild abrasive for around the kitchen, it is a 6 on the Mohs scale of mineral hardness.  So if you decide to remove Rain-X on your collector cone take care not to remove too much of the plastic along the way!  Some plastics have an outer coating of UV protector which you most definitely do not want to remove!

Cheers, Edouard  [cheers1]

Felix

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Re: Surprises in Rain-X SDS information.
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2017, 10:55:16 AM »
How much is a new collector cone with spikes from one of the several Davis discounters? If Snow-jet ever stops beading up water after a semi-annual application, I'm going to go that route. I've still got the old version (sans spikes) and the strainer in the bottom blew out in a hurricane a few years ago so I now have a homemade device.


OTOH, I've been considering boxing the entire unit up and sending it back to Davis for a refurbishment this summer. And I'm kind of thinking they might put the updated rain collector on it as part of the price of the refurbishment.

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Re: Surprises in Rain-X SDS information.
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2017, 05:24:48 PM »
You should be able to buy a replacement collector cone for the VP line for about US$8024.50.  :-[  I had Davis refurb my setup a couple of years ago and was very pleased with the outcome. They did not replace my cone as part of that service.
Blick


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Re: Surprises in Rain-X SDS information.
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2017, 06:02:40 PM »
You should be able to buy a replacement collector cone for the VP line for about US$80.

VP2 rain collector cone with spikes, latest debris screen, logo, gripping grooves for $24.50 (six in stock at this writing)
https://www.scaledinstruments.com/product/davis-7345-527-pro2-rain-collector-cone-kit-w-logo-grip-grooves-and-bird-spikes/
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xairbusdriver

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Re: Surprises in Rain-X SDS information.
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2017, 11:57:03 PM »
Exactly what is the advantage of these chemical over plain ole carnauba wax?
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elagache

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Wax and glass don't mix. (Re: Surprises in Rain-X SDS information.)
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2017, 12:11:18 AM »
Dear X-Air and WeatherCat curious minds, . . . . . .

Exactly what is the advantage of these chemical over plain ole carnauba wax?

Well for a glass surface the answer is obvious.  Have you ever tried to wax glass?  ;D

More generally, the water beading action of these water repellent products is different from wax.  Wax does repel water, but it does so by creating large beads of water.  Rain-X and Aquapel cause the water beads to be much smaller.  As a result you can see through them more easily and the actions of your wiper are more effective.

On a rain gauge collector cone the effect is to avoid water collecting in large beads on the cone and instead running down the cone to be counted by rain gauge buckets.  It might be worth an additional 0.01" of accuracy particularly when the rainfall is very light.

You might not find that very worthwhile or you might . . . . . it all depends on how much time you have spent living in drought . . . .

Cheers, Edouard  [cheers1]

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Re: Wax and glass don't mix. (Re: Surprises in Rain-X SDS information.)
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2017, 01:00:20 AM »
On a rain gauge collector cone the effect is to avoid water collecting in large beads on the cone and instead running down the cone to be counted by rain gauge buckets.  It might be worth an additional 0.01" of accuracy particularly when the rainfall is very light.

You might not find that very worthwhile or you might . . . . . it all depends on how much time you have spent living in drought . . . .

To borrow the CoCoRaHS slogan, because every drop counts where I live, I apply Rain-X to my collector cone every year.
Blick


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Re: Surprises in Rain-X SDS information.
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2017, 02:38:27 AM »
Especially in winter with the heater on. Any snow flake that melts but doesn't roll down into the collector will evaporate from the heat. I've had very light snow for hours with no tips of the bucket if I don't keep the cone slick.

BTW, the very best way that I've found to get windscreens absolutely spotless is to use 0000 steel wool. First clean the windscreen normally, dry, then scrub with dry 0000 steel wool. It works amazingly well. Even gets those baked on water spots. Then I Rain-X the glass and wiper blades.
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Weatheraardvark

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Re: Surprises in Rain-X SDS information.
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2017, 03:53:52 PM »
 [snow]
Ah... if your rain collector is level, plumb, the why worry about catching every drop?  Why does anyone think that their rain cone needs that stuff in the first place.

My rain cone is just fine, it collects rain here and goes into the pan.  Putting all sorts of crap in the pan, well you sometimes can gum up things, I'd just leave it as it came from the factory and if for some reason you feel the need for a new one,buy it. [cold]
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