Author Topic: FYI: I'm getting one assertive billy-goat station wagon!!  (Read 129404 times)

elagache

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Dear WeatherCat users in da' good ol' USofA . . . . .

So did you celebrate this great American holiday by?  . . . .

Taking your great American classic car out for a drive?

Well one assertive station wagon did her part to make this Memorial day a classic one:



Nonetheless even on a federal holiday, a station wagon's work is never done . . . . . .



Cheers, Edouard

P.S. Alas my wagon didn't have much in the way of company even if there are a lot of classic cars in the area.  The only other vintage cars I saw was a Volkswagen Beetle from the 1960s and seriously beat up 60s Ford Mustang.  We are having something of a heatwave and that might have been more than most classic car owners wanted to deal with.

elagache

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Dear WeatherCat automobile enthusiasts, especially of vehicles that are immaculate and very shiny!

The weather has been anything but typical in northern California.  In particular the spring and autumn days with a lot of fog are definitely missing.  As a result, I didn't get my preferred window for washing and waxing all the car in the family "motorpool."  I started early this month and washed the cars in order of need.  Since my trusty wagon hasn't seen a lot of service this winter, she ended up being the last car to wash, . . . . . nonetheless . . . .

Gosh darn it . . . .

Station wagons are really good for all sorts of things.  Alas, there is one chore for which a station wagon is a real drag . . . . . wash and wax.  That's when you discover that d'em long roof is awful hard on your muscles . . . .

Well, yesterday I started at 10am, took a short break for lunch, and didn't finish until 4:30 pm.  Still, I managed to get my trusty wagon out for a few quick glamor shots before putting her back in the garage:



Here is the passenger side front view:



Here is the all important tailgate from the passenger side:



Finally one last view from the driver's side:



Hopefully I won't be sore for more than a day or two!

Cheers, Edouard   [cheers1]

Blicj11

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Re: FYI: I'm getting one assertive billy-goat station wagon!!
« Reply #137 on: June 15, 2016, 05:17:22 AM »
I can't believe that a after all that wash and wax effort, the first thing you did was pull her over to the side onto a dirt shoulder to take a picture.
Blick


elagache

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Clever - wasn't it! (Re: Billy-goat station wagon!!)
« Reply #138 on: June 15, 2016, 11:25:54 PM »
Dear Blick and WeatherCat automotive finish experts,

I can't believe that a after all that wash and wax effort, the first thing you did was pull her over to the side onto a dirt shoulder to take a picture.

[wink] . . .  But of course!  That was part of my strategy to highlight the tire dressing!  Getting a little gravel on the tires lightened their color.  That made the black of the tire dress stand out even more!! . . . .  [biggrin]

Honestly, I did realize that wasn't the smartest thing to do, but I was really, really late and I had to take those photos ASAP!!

Cheers, Edouard  [cheers1]

P.S. I did move on and off the gravel very slowly!

elagache

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Will the electronic fuel injection EVER get finally tuned!?!?? (Re: wagon)
« Reply #139 on: July 18, 2016, 09:35:37 PM »
Dear WeatherCat automotive enthusiasts,

There was a not so subtle hint that perhaps I should provide an update on my trusty wagon's progress.  Well, there was some "progress" but it might be considered to be in the wrong direction!

I was unable to eliminate some engine instability when starting from cold no matter how I adjusted the startup tables in the electronic fuel injection software.  It turned out the explanation was extremely simple.  There is another table that enriches the fuel depending on the temperature of the coolant - basically functioning like a choke on a carburetor-equipped car.  For whatever bizarre reason, this table wasn't included in the grouping related to starting the car - so I didn't notice it until now! 

Nonetheless having identified the rogue table, I immediately tried adjusting it and in just one attempt succeeded in getting the engine to start up very badly!  [banghead]  However, this was good news in disguise.  This table had values that left the fuel mixture too rich.  My first adjustment now left the fuel too lean.  As anyone familiar with naval artillery will realize, I have successfully straddled the target.  The correct values have to be in within the range I have identified.

As it appeared the cold start problems where close to be being solved I unwittingly discovered that warm start settings are probably off.  Occasionally, I have the engine cut off shortly after a hot start.  I had assumed my problem was the ignition controller box overheating while the car was left sitting.  However, after calling the guy who sold me the system, he instead informed me that the problem is too much cranking fuel - the engine is getting flooded!  So I now need to start investigating the values for hot start.

In the meantime, I have known I need to upgrade to larger tires.  The existing tires were for a much smaller engine and are a bit unsafe.  Normally, the largest tire you can put on a car is limited by the clearance (usually for the front wheels.)  However, station wagons introduce one more winkle.  Instead of a roomy trunk, the spare tire needs to fit into a spare tire well:



The tallest tire that can be used on the car must still fit into this well.  Obviously it was time to clean the spare tire well and check on the available space.  Alas, that led to an unfortunate discovery.  When the car was stolen in 1986 the thief removed the original Buick factory bumper jack.  We never did find a satisfactory replacement.  There was also a bottle jack which we stuck under the wheel once the bumper jack lifted the car enough so that the jack could get under the wheel.  However, this jack had been badly rusted in the past 30 years and isn't trustworthy.  So I'm searching some sort of replacement jack.  Alas, once more lacking the space of a roomy trunk is a serious problem.

Adding to the fun is the damage done to the driver's side door back on January 1st, 2013:



It appears somebody slammed a shopping cart into the door while I was picking up a few quick items at our local pharmacy.  It would be a quick job for the body shop that repainted the car but they have gone out of business!    So I need to locate another body shop that might be able to take this small job on before . . . . The Orinda Classic Car show which this year is September 10th!

Oh and I really need to replace the story boards that I put around Biquette that describe her life story at car shows.  They were first made in 2010 and are out of now seriously worn cardboard.

So in short, while the car is running.  . . . . . Nonetheless, there are a few "minor issues" that still need to be addressed! . .

Need I say more?

Edouard  :)

Blicj11

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Re: FYI: I'm getting one assertive billy-goat station wagon!!
« Reply #140 on: July 18, 2016, 11:16:50 PM »
Just keep us in the loop. This is good reading.
Blick


elagache

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Strange fuel pressure problem (Re: Billy-goat station wagon!!)
« Reply #141 on: July 23, 2016, 11:02:02 PM »
Dear WeatherCat automotive enthusiasts,

Well, you guys asked to be kept updated so here is the latest twist in da? plot! For a few months now, I?ve occasionally had the engine stall after a hot start.  This has always happened after I returned from a trip and had stopped the engine so I could unload the car.  When I would start her up, the engine would mysteriously die.  Trying to restart the engine it wouldn?t even turn over.

It didn?t happen very often and I discovered that simply allowing the engine to cool allowed me to restart the engine and finally get her in the garage.  With so many other things to troubleshoot I put it on the back burner at first.  My initial suspicion was that the ignition controller box was overheating.

Of course any sort of overheating issue would get worse as the temperature increased in the summertime.  So it isn?t surprising that now I have to deal with this problem.  I managed to log the problem occurring and sent the log to the fellow who sold me the system.  He spotted that the fuel pressure was dropping just before the engine died.

With this information, I decided to run another test.  I hadn?t tried to restart the engine while logging the data.  Yesterday I was able to run this experiment and here are the results:



You can view this graph as a movie with the actual values of the various engine parameters changing in real time:

https://youtu.be/Z1cRiMDGbeM

Instead of failing to start after the stall, the engine does restart, runs for a brief period and then the fuel pressure starts to drop and the engine dies a second time.

You can see how the engine is starved until it stalls on this video of the engine itself.

https://youtu.be/7FDDNpJ9FbM

My trusty wagon has been completely backfitted with a modern fuel delivery system including a new gas tank that has an integrated fuel pump:

http://ecat.spectrapremium.com/prod/GM37EFI

In a modern fuel injection fuel system, gasoline flows in a loop to the engine where it runs into a pressure regulator.  It?s job is to make sure there is enough pressure so that when a fuel injector opens, it ?squirts? with the suffient force to dispense proper amount of fuel.  Any gasoline that isn?t consumed by the injectors flows back to the gas tank for later use.

With the fuel pump in the gas tank, the hot engine bay cannot be effecting it at all.  So the most likely suspect is the pressure regulator. However that is a simple mechanical device that should be able to take the engine bay heat.  What is even more strange is that once things cool down, everything works once more.  As in previous cases, allowing the engine to cool down for about 40 minutes allowed me to start the car once more and put her back in the garage.  Once more the engine was behaving as normal.

At this point I don?t think I have much of a choice but to bring her over to Orinda Motors and see if they can troubleshoot this problem but clearly it is a very strange one.

Stay tuned!

Cheers, Edouard  [cheers1]

P.S. This sure isn't helping my desperate hope of getting the car over to a body to fix those dings . . . .

Bull Winkus

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Re: FYI: I'm getting one assertive billy-goat station wagon!!
« Reply #142 on: July 24, 2016, 12:00:16 AM »
Vapor lock?
Herb

xairbusdriver

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Re: FYI: I'm getting one assertive billy-goat station wagon!!
« Reply #143 on: July 24, 2016, 12:33:22 AM »
Quote
Vapor lock?
My same thought. Is there a fuel line running along or very near the exhaust system? I'd suspect it would be some distance from the engine or the fuel tank pump/pressure would clear out the 'bubble' fairly quickly. Perhaps that 'bubble' is nearer the fuel tank and the initial start is just using the gas until the 'bubble' finally gets to the injector pump.

BTW, how is the injector pump lubricated? I think early ones could be damaged by running too long without gasoline.
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elagache

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Dear Herb, X-Air, and WeatherCat troubleshooters of 4-wheel vehicles.

Vapor lock?

I agree it does seem to have the correct symptoms, but my wagon's fuel system shouldn't have any problems with vapor lock because the fuel is constantly circulating.  That is supposed to remove enough heat to keep the gasoline liquid at all times.

Is there a fuel line running along or very near the exhaust system?

I'm sure Greg at Orinda Motors did his best to keep the fuel line away from the exhaust.  However, it is an oversized engine in a small engine bay with exhaust headers.  If you look at the movie of the log data, you can see the intake air temperature (top row of data, second item from the right.)  It starts out at 120˚ F and climbs to almost 130˚ F with the hood open!  The ambient temperature at the time was in the mid-80s.  So the engine heat is enough to raise the air temperature just above it by around 40˚.

Something that has been moved up on my "trusty wagon things to do" list is providing a cold-air intake.  This engine really needs to be getting air from outside.  Unfortunately, it isn't very easy to implement.

BTW, how is the injector pump lubricated? I think early ones could be damaged by running too long without gasoline.

I'm not sure what you mean by "injector pump?"  There is only one pump in this fuel injection system and that's the one in the gas tank.  There are 8 injectors in the throttle body, but they function like valves.  When they open gas sprays through the nozzle at the end of the injector into the intake manifold.

This is the latest throttle body from FAST.  It should have modern injectors.  However, there is a known problem with manifold vacuum sensor.  I'll have Greg check it and and some point it will need to be relocated.

Classic cars are so much fun . . . . . .  [banghead]

Cheers, Edouard

xairbusdriver

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Re: FYI: I'm getting one assertive billy-goat station wagon!!
« Reply #145 on: July 25, 2016, 01:14:48 AM »
Quote
my wagon's fuel system shouldn't have any problems with vapor lock because the fuel is constantly circulating.
I thought you said this problem occurred after a drive and the engine shut off. You then get the stall when you try to start it up again soon after that shutdown. How long does that fuel keep circulating after you kill the engine?

The temperature of the block normally gets much hotter right after the engine is shut off, also. The water is no longer circulating through the radiator, so it just sits there soaking up the heat with only the surrounding air to transfer it away. New vehicles have an electric fan running for a while after the engines is shut off that blows/sucks air through the radiator to help with this cool down. Perhaps you have a similar electric fan?

However, as you point out, the air circulation in the engine compartment is less than perfect, this may also result in a slower cool down and even transfer more heat into the metal (I assume?) fuel line. Might be interesting to measure the temps during the first 10 minutes after you kill the engine ... with the hood closed, of course.

I think you can fix this whole problem by burying a small chest-type freezer in the floor of your garage. Make the top edge of the freezer (sans the door) even with the remaining garage floor. Make sure the long axis of the freezer is parallel with the long axis of your car and preferably centered between where the font wheels usually are. A fairly small oscillating fan should be placed in the bottom of the freezer and pointed up toward the ceiling/car. Now, after parking the car and shutting off the engine, just run the fan for ~5 minutes. You should now be able to start the engine without any stalling problems. Please hire a professional electrician to wire the freezer, fan and a switch conveniently located wall switch for the fan. You can rent the concrete saw and jack-hammer. You probably already have a shovel.

NOTE: Save the original top from the freezer. For safety, place the top over the floor 'mounted' freezer to prevent trapping small animals and children. Even better, mount some poles around the perimeter of the freezer and connect two rows of safety chains around them. Painting the poles "Day-Glo" orange is optional.

BTW, you should probably use metal containers when storing items in the freezer now. It will be much more accessible to dogs, cats, rats, etc. They generally do not obey safety chains nor "Day-Glo" poles. [rolleyes2]

You are welcome!
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Bull Winkus

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Re: FYI: I'm getting one assertive billy-goat station wagon!!
« Reply #146 on: July 25, 2016, 07:31:12 AM »
Yeah, that's it. Who can turn down "Day-Glo" stuff, anyway?

Well Edouard, I hope you get it solved. I've a feeling that you will. Perhaps it's just a simple case of letting the fuel pump continue to circulate for an extra minute or three, or pausing the ignition key just before engaging the starter for good circulation before putting fire in the hole.

But, don't rebuild the starter! I once did that after letting the car sit idle all winter because the starter wouldn't engage with a perfectly good battery. Turned out to be the gear shift was still in Drive. Funny thing about those automatic transmissions; you can't use the starter to roll the car a few feet to avoid getting out in a puddle, like you could with the standards.

 [cheers1]
Herb

elagache

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Da' plot thickens some 'mor . . . (Re: Billy-goat station wagon!!)
« Reply #147 on: July 25, 2016, 10:55:03 PM »
Dear X-Air, Herb, and WeatherCat automobile troubleshooters,

Quote
my wagon's fuel system shouldn't have any problems with vapor lock because the fuel is constantly circulating.
I thought you said this problem occurred after a drive and the engine shut off. You then get the stall when you try to start it up again soon after that shutdown. How long does that fuel keep circulating after you kill the engine?

Yes you are correct, the fuel doesn't circulate which the engine shutdown.  However, since the fuel system is closed it should be in principle difficult for the fuel to vaporize.  There is no volume that it should be able to expand into.

However, I was over at Orinda Motors having our "Junior Buick" (Coquette, our 2000 Buick Century) get her annual checkup and apparently there is some sort of a equivalent vapor lock situation that is possible for fuel injection systems.  I still don't understand the mechanism exactly but it does appear that my trusty wagon will have to pay a visit to the shop.

Nonetheless there was an intriguing observation when I went back over the data logs.  If the fuel was vaporizing because of the heat of the engine bay, it wouldn't be possible to get the engine to start at all.  Instead, there is a fairly steady 20-30 seconds of the engine running before it stalls.  That suggests the fuel is vaporizing somewhere in between the tank and the engine bay.  Perhaps the fuel line is too close to the exhaust somewhere.

But, don't rebuild the starter! I once did that after letting the car sit idle all winter because the starter wouldn't engage with a perfectly good battery. Turned out to be the gear shift was still in Drive.

Well, I'll try to make sense of the potential starter issue later on.  At least this engine you can buy a new starter so there is no need to try to rebuild an old one.

Funny thing about those automatic transmissions; you can't use the starter to roll the car a few feet to avoid getting out in a puddle, like you could with the standards.

That is true, but my wagon can still easily pushed around if you put the transmission in neutral.  She definitely predates all these safety measures so you don't have to have your foot on the gas before shifting the transmission.  So I still push her out of the garage with my own elbow grease as I have for more years that I prefer to admit!  ;D

Cheers, Edouard  [cheers1]

elagache

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Suspected defective fuel pressure regulator (Re: Billy-goat station wagon!!)
« Reply #148 on: August 04, 2016, 11:49:47 PM »
Dear WeatherCat automotive enthusiasts,

Here is a quick update on my trusty wagon's hot start problems.  I made some additional adjustments to the cold start parameters and logged another sequence of hot starts.  The logs very clearly show that the fuel pressure drops dramatically when the engine is warm:



The white line almost in the middle of the graph is what is being displayed in the data below.  At the moment, the fuel pressure (lower left corner of the data boxes) was 20.6 PSI.  The regulator is supposed to keep the fuel pressure at 43 PSI!  With only 1/2 the required pressure, it is no surprise that the engine is starved of sufficient fuel and quits.

I bought this graph over to Orinda Motors and asked their ace classic car mechanic Greg about it.  Without a doubt he concluded that the fuel pressure regulator was defective and was failing to keep the fuel pressure at 43 PSI.  Greg didn't explain, but apparently pressure regulators can have difficulty holding pressure when the fuel is extremely warm.  That pressure is supposed to keep the gasoline liquid even with an engine bay at 150˚ F.

Yesterday I ordered a new one from Summit RacingSummit Racing is sort of the ultimate caddy store for American muscle car guys.  Worse still they have a free shipping at $99, so if your item is less than that - temptation!   As luck would have it, the regulator already cleared the free shipping limit, so I had no excuse to buy "toys" . . . .

The part should arrive tomorrow and Orinda Motors is scheduled to replace it on Tuesday . . . . . so

We shall see . . . . .

Edouard

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Re: FYI: I'm getting one assertive billy-goat station wagon!!
« Reply #149 on: August 05, 2016, 01:33:32 AM »
No warranty on the current regulator?
Herb