Author Topic: *Sniff* . . da' darn "mellar-drama" continues!!  (Read 35176 times)

xairbusdriver

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Re: *Sniff* . . da' darn "mellar-drama" continues!!
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2015, 01:55:42 AM »
AhHA! You added the AC adaptor while I wasn't paying attention! ::) I obviously missed that logical plan for trouble-shoting. That's not exactly fair to Herb, however...

OK, being the ignorant newcomer, I have some questions:
1. Is the 'power adaptor' just a small 'wall wart' that plugs into a standard AC receptical? If so, is it warm/hot to the touch?
2. Did you have the 'battery eating' problem before adding the extra temp/humidity sensor?
3. Is it possible to get another cable for that sensor?
4. Can Davis tell us what would happen if any cable had an intermittent short?
5. Are the cable connectors the standard RJ45 type?
Please write your answers on the back of $20 bills and mail to the address I'll PM you. [lol2]
PS: if needed, you can use $10 bills. You're welcome! ::)
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elagache

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Another day, another outage . . . (Re: Darn "mellar-drama" continues!!)
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2015, 08:56:05 PM »
Dear xairbusdriver and subscribers to this darn "mellar-drama",

First the news, another day another outage:



About the same time as yesterday's but a bit earlier.  It still appears that the station transmitter stops transmitting.  We got a bit of rain overnight, but there were no bucket tips during the period of the outage.  So even if no sensor errors are being reported from the rain gauge, it could be simply no data is being transmitted and that isn't counted as a sensor error because no signal is sent unless a bucket tip occurs.  The sensor error pattern is exactly the same if you allow the station transmitter to run out of power and stop transmitting.  I did that test.

Here is the total sensor errors for the past two days:



I did check the battery just in case, but it hasn't moved below 3.19 Volts.

AhHA! You added the AC adaptor while I wasn't paying attention! ::) I obviously missed that logical plan for trouble-shoting. That's not exactly fair to Herb, however...

Actually, I haven't documented the changes I made to the station in the hopes of getting rid of this problem.  I hope to, but I've got a ton of things on my plate right now.


1. Is the 'power adaptor' just a small 'wall wart' that plugs into a standard AC receptical? If so, is it warm/hot to the touch?

The AC adapter is the standard one that will come with your Vantage Pro-2 console.  I just bought an extra one for this job.  I just checked, the transformer end of the adapter is cool to the touch.

2. Did you have the 'battery eating' problem before adding the extra temp/humidity sensor?

The station has had 2 temperature/humidity sensors since it went live in 2009.  The 6382 temperature/humidity station continues to work just fine.  I have replaced the temperature/humidity probe and data cable with a completely new unit after all these problems started in October 2014.  Since Davis recommends against extending the data cable on a temperature/humidity probe, I really had no choice but to buy a new one with the factory data cable.

3. Is it possible to get another cable for that sensor?

Since it is a completely new sensor and cable, that cannot be the problem.

4. Can Davis tell us what would happen if any cable had an intermittent short?

I haven't asked them that question specifically, but I would expect that a problem like that would be unlikely to affect the transmitter only in the early hours of the morning.  That sort of thing should be happening at any time of day.

5. Are the cable connectors the standard RJ45 type?

All the connectors are standard phone connectors.  The temperature/humidity probe uses a standard 6-conductor RJ-12 connector.  The remaining sensors are RJ-11 4-conductor connectors.

Please write your answers on the back of $20 bills and mail to the address I'll PM you. [lol2]
PS: if needed, you can use $10 bills. You're welcome! ::)

 ;) . . . . . Nice try wise-guy!  You - still - haven't paid our consulting fees yet!  If you don't we might be forced to send one of our gorillas to repossess your station! . . . . .  [lol2]

Cheers, Edouard  [cheers1]

xairbusdriver

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Re: *Sniff* . . da' darn "mellar-drama" continues!!
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2015, 09:50:55 PM »
Quote from: answer to #3
that cannot be the problem
Never say "never" (or "cannot").
Quote from: answer to #4
That sort of thing should be happening at any time of day.
Likewise, "should be" are the two most over-used, and connected words in the English language (and I suspect all others)! I always loved "intermittent" problems in the airplane. Maintenance loved them even more. Write up: "Engine 'intermittently' flames out". Maintenance write off:"Intermittently corrected." [lol] Changes in temperature and humidity are often causes for intermittent shorts and other problems. Especially in buried cables. With low voltages, it may simply drain a battery/capacitor or cause signal noise. With high voltages, you can usually smell the burning house!  :o

I think you mentioned examining the circuit board for 'cold solder joints', right?

I'm really not arguing, just saying things we don't think are a problem sometimes are. Just suggesting it is  usually best to sort out problems by starting at the simplest and easiest things to check first. It's even possible that the tiny wire contacts in those RJ cables have got bent away from where they should be. With my eyes, I'd have to use a magnifying glass to confirm they are correctly positioned. 8)

Just trying to come up with things you may not have done; not second guessing things you have done. :)
THERE ARE TWO TYPES OF COUNTRIES
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xairbusdriver

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Re: *Sniff* . . da' darn "mellar-drama" continues!!
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2015, 09:54:48 PM »
Quote
You - still - haven't paid our consulting fees yet!
Oops! I just missed the mailman today! I want to hand-deliver the letter to him, to be sure he gets it. OTOH, his truck caught fire a few weeks ago, so that might not be the safest way to get your check to you... I'll go look for my check book, in the mean time... I know it's around here somewhere! [bounce]
THERE ARE TWO TYPES OF COUNTRIES
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And the United States = The Banana system


elagache

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A few more details. (Re: Darn "mellar-drama" continues!!)
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2015, 09:04:00 PM »
Dear xairbusdriver and WeatherCat station troubleshooters,

Well, this plot has been going on since last October so there are a few details you haven't been privy to.  One key point that makes straightforward troubleshooting awkward is that these failures have been happening with - 2 - different station transmitter boards.  I bought a new transmitter when all this started and that's the board that I sent back to Davis for repairs.  So the station is using the original station transmitter board that came with the station 5-1/2 years ago.  I'm still getting outages that have all the same symptoms.

I've therefore swapped out the transmitter boards and temperature/humidity probe.  That leaves the remaining instruments as potential suspects: rain gauge, anemometer, and solar radiation sensor.  However, it seems really unlikely that any one of those sensors could be causing problems only late at night but work fine at all other times.  This seems even more unlikely since I spliced the data cables of all three.  If there was a problem with any sensor, extending the distance that the signal travels should have made the situation worse.  WeatherCat reports errors only on the temperature and wind speed only, and has always been consistent in that.  Since the temperature/humidity probe is brand new.  It seems extremely unlikely that brand new piece of equipment would behave like the old one, right down to the interaction with the anemometer.  The behavior really only makes sense if you observe what happens when station transmission stops by removing the battery and unplugging the AC adapter.  In that situation, there is exactly the same pattern of sensor errors.  That seems like a strong case against the other sensors having any problems.  Once more, damaged sensors wouldn't fail on some occasional nights and work perfectly well the rest of the time.

At this point the explanation that seems to best fit the facts is some sort of radio frequency interference.  WeatherCat is reporting sensor errors consistent with no more signal coming from the station transmitter.  There is two ways that could happen.  The transmitter board shuts down, or another radio source overwhelms the station.  However, this doesn't fit the facts very well either.  As noted, there does seem to be a pattern to the outages.  Many occur just after midnight and they are regular in duration.  A machine source for the outages might explain this, but human beings don't have regular schedules in the early morning hours.

The other fly in that explanation is that I've switched my setup to use my console to retransmit the data from the station transmitter.  Now the signal should be good and strong because it only has to travel 20-30 feet on each hop.  Alas, I have observed the outages even in this configuration.  I have also tried switching the transmitter IDs to get out of a range of interference, although I might need to experiment with this some more.

The other strange matter is the issue of 123 batteries discharging when according to Davis they should not be used at all.  As a check on this claim, I checked the voltage of the AA batteries in my Weather Envoy before I put it back into service.  They weren't "fresh out of the box" voltage, but remained at 1.5+ volts after 6 months.  The battery in the station transmitter board has dropped from 3.23 Volts to 3.19 Volts in a month.  That's not a lot of voltage drop by itself, but if that battery is supposed to be completely bypassed . . . . well, something is causing that battery to discharge.  Since that battery is there to deal with potential power disruptions, it is a concern.

So in short there is something really strange going on with station.  I haven't completely torn everything down and examined every component with a fine-toothed comb.  But there is enough information to rule out the vast majority of simple explanations.  Something is just plain weird here.

Edouard

xairbusdriver

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Re: *Sniff* . . da' darn "mellar-drama" continues!!
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2015, 01:12:16 AM »
Thanks for the update and added info! I won't be offering any more stupid suggestions that you've already done. That's not to say I still won't offer stupid suggestions, of course... [goofy]

Quote
WeatherCat reports errors only on the temperature and wind speed only, and has always been consistent in that.
And those cables were also "spliced"? Exactly how did you "splice" the cable; by crimping on a new male or female connector or by cutting the individual wires?

Quote
Since the temperature/humidity probe is brand new.  It seems extremely unlikely that brand new piece of equipment would behave like the old one
Is it using a new cable? I assume it comes with a short one which is why you needed to "splice" them, assuming you even did that on this particular cable.

Quote
[behavior is duplicated] when station transmission stops by removing the battery and unplugging the AC adapter.
Returning to my first quotation, are you saying that the "temperature and wind speed" are the only sensors that stop transmitting when you remove these two power sources?! Are you saying that solar power is not enough, even with Sunlight, but without the battery and AC? Or are you saying that the Super Cap/Solar power can run all the other sensors except the temp and wind speed?

My simplest suggestion is to change the station/Console ID's and watch/wait. That only requires a dip switch change and probably entering the Console/Envoy settings. But it will rule out the possibility of another station on the same ID. Apparently, the freq is not adjustable, only way to differentiate one transmitter from another is with the 8 different IDs probably assigned to each data packet.

Your station has been in the elements for over 5 years. Mechanical connections can corrode/oxidize with just humidity. That would include the RJ connectors, of course. The battery contacts are relatively easy to clean, the RJ one could be difficult, but it's another possibility you can eliminate with a little elbow grease.

I'm not sure the drain you are seeing is anything more than what you'd see in a battery sitting on a shelf in your house. They all use a chemical reaction to generate electricity and those chemical reactions don't stop just because nothing is connected to the terminals. Unlike humans, batteries are not purfeck! :o

Good luck!
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And the United States = The Banana system


elagache

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More info. (Re: Darn "mellar-drama" continues!!)
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2015, 08:39:58 PM »
Dear xairbusdriver and WeatherCat subscribers to this darn "mellar-drama"

First the update.  No errors the past two nights.

Quote
WeatherCat reports errors only on the temperature and wind speed only, and has always been consistent in that.

Precisely.  Every time I've had problems the pattern of errors is the same: external temperature and wind speed errors only.  Oddly, when I have caused the station transmitter to run out of power, the console displays dashes instead of numbers for every sensor.  So the console and Weather Envoy change state in response to the transmitter stopping.  However, apparently Stu cannot get that information out of the computer interface.

And those cables were also "spliced"? Exactly how did you "splice" the cable; by crimping on a new male or female connector or by cutting the individual wires?

Only the anemometer cable has been spliced.  The reason for doing all this was to eliminate the splice on the temperature/humidity probe since Davis no longer recommends extending that cable.  The extensions where done using the Davis 7957 splicing kit:

http://www.davisnet.com/product_documents/weather/manuals/07395-010_IM_07957.pdf

It provides the weather-proof housing shown in the instructions and uses scotchlok connectors to make the splices.  You need to cut the out insulation of the cables (which are 4-conductor telephone wire) but the scotchlok connectors make the actual connections.

Quote
Since the temperature/humidity probe is brand new.  It seems extremely unlikely that brand new piece of equipment would behave like the old one
Is it using a new cable? I assume it comes with a short one which is why you needed to "splice" them, assuming you even did that on this particular cable.

All Davis sensors come with their own data cables.  You should be able spot this now that you have your station up.

Quote
[behavior is duplicated] when station transmission stops by removing the battery and unplugging the AC adapter.
Returning to my first quotation, are you saying that the "temperature and wind speed" are the only sensors that stop transmitting when you remove these two power sources?!

No, all sensors are lost because the transmitter has stopped broadcasting.  You can observe this at the transmitter by turning on a dip-switch that causes an LED to flash every time the station transmits data (about once a second.)  This is useful in troubleshooting.  WeatherCat cannot determine if a sensor has errors unless either the value returned by the data logger is unreasonable (like negative rainfall) or is a sentinel value according to the Davis computer interface.  At least as WeatherCat is presently implemented, it only detects errors from two sensors when the transmitter stops transmitting.

My simplest suggestion is to change the station/Console ID's and watch/wait. That only requires a dip switch change and probably entering the Console/Envoy settings. But it will rule out the possibility of another station on the same ID. Apparently, the freq is not adjustable, only way to differentiate one transmitter from another is with the 8 different IDs probably assigned to each data packet.

I've already tried a number of transmitter IDs without any change in the situation.  Right now the station transmitter is on ID #3 and the console retransmits that data on ID #4.  I have my 6382 temperature/humidity station on ID #2.  Oddly, I've never had a data outage from the 6382 transmitter.  If there was some electromagnetic interference that was blasting across all the Davis station IDs, you would expect I would have sensor errors from both temperature/humidity probes - that doesn't happen.

Your station has been in the elements for over 5 years. Mechanical connections can corrode/oxidize with just humidity. That would include the RJ connectors, of course. The battery contacts are relatively easy to clean, the RJ one could be difficult, but it's another possibility you can eliminate with a little elbow grease.

As you'll learn, the Davis housings are very well made.  The components hold up well if you do a little maintenance.  If you haven't already done it, get yourself some silicone grease for o-rings and lube the o-ring that seals the solar panel door to the transmitter enclosure.  If you do that, it will be easier to open the door to replace the battery and it will make sure the enclosure remains water-tight.

I'm not sure the drain you are seeing is anything more than what you'd see in a battery sitting on a shelf in your house.

Unfortunately, that is clearly not true.  I've been buying these batteries according to Herb's commission at Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002IGW15G/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Herb's observation is that Amazon sells these batteries fast enough that they don't end up sitting in inventory and losing power.  If you buy these specialty batteries at your local hardware store, they have have discharged because of slow inventory turn-around for this sort of battery. 

Just after putting the battery in the station I check the voltage under load.  I've gone through something like 24 of these batteries since October and all but one was right on the spot: 3.23 Volts.  The one exception was 3.22 Volts - close enough.  I continue to take voltage readings of the battery while still in the station - thus under any load that the battery might be experiencing.

That is what makes this whole situation - very strange.  The main reason I switched from trying to keep my station solar powered to using an AC adapter is that I was - certain - that would eliminate any power supply problems.  No matter now much power the station transmitter might need, the AC adapter should have been more than up to the task.  So it seems a fool-proof modification to get myself out of this mess.  Davis stubbornly insists that when the AC adapter is connected, the battery is bypassed completely.  If it bypassed, how can the voltage drop?  Okay it will over many months, but I'm seeing changes over weeks.

So as I've said, something is really weird here.  Davis has the newer station transmitter board in their shops right now.  I'm hoping whatever is wrong with it they can fix it and my nightmare will finally be over.

Oh well, Edouard

xairbusdriver

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Re: *Sniff* . . da' darn "mellar-drama" continues!!
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2015, 09:45:12 PM »
OK. Thanks for the update. Since you now have the original board in the ISS, at least look at the battery contacts with the battery out. It should not hurt to lightly us a rubber (pencil) eraser on them and the battery itself.

The problem you are having is, unfortunately, an intermittent one. I plan on having only permanent types, even if it means the station catches fire! :o

Sorry I can't help.  :'(
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elagache

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Waiting for new transmitter board. (Re: Darn "mellar-drama" continues!!)
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2015, 09:44:29 PM »
Dear xairbusdriver and subscribers to this darn "mellar-drama"

Another night of no problems.

OK. Thanks for the update. Since you now have the original board in the ISS, at least look at the battery contacts with the battery out. It should not hurt to lightly us a rubber (pencil) eraser on them and the battery itself.

I'll probably leave the current board alone since the newer board that I sent to Davis should come back sometime next week.  When it arrives, I'll swap it back into the enclosure next to the temperature/humidity probe and hopefully that will solve the problem.

I thought I would replace the batteries in both transmitter boards I have and then monitor the voltage drop in both.  Since the second transmitter board is strictly battery powered, that should provide a useful comparison.  If the battery in the board powered by AC drops faster than the battery which is actually powering the other board - I'll know there is something very seriously wrong!

Sorry I can't help.  :'(

Well, I do appreciate that, but you are most definitely not alone.  This problem stumped the much larger WXForum where some serious Davis experts hang out and Davis tech support hasn't been very supportive - to say the least!

Cheers, Edouard  [cheers1]

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New board has arrived. (Re: Darn "mellar-drama" continues!!)
« Reply #39 on: March 27, 2015, 10:12:25 PM »
Dear WeatherCat subscribers to this darn "mellar-drama,"

I got an email this morning that the transmitter board was shipped.  Since Davis is located less than 100 miles from my house, they managed to get the board to me in a day (probably shipped last night.)  Fed Ex ground delivered it this afternoon.  Alas, there is no explanation of what they did to the board, so I can't be sure the problem is fixed.  I might not be able to make the swap until Sunday, tomorrow is looking really busy.  Nonetheless, hopefully I'll be finding out soon enough if my miseries are finally over!

Thanks for your support!!  [tup]

Cheers, Edouard  [cheers1]

xairbusdriver

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Re: *Sniff* . . da' darn "mellar-drama" continues!!
« Reply #40 on: March 27, 2015, 11:07:49 PM »
FedEx is great! They also have really nice retirees! Especially the ones who drove their Airbuses! ;) [lol]

P.S.: Don't start with those, "Yeah, but did you hear what they did..." stories! :P
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Bull Winkus

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Re: *Sniff* . . da' darn "mellar-drama" continues!!
« Reply #41 on: March 27, 2015, 11:48:03 PM »
Well Edouard, I hope this last swap does the trick.

If not, maybe you could talk some friend into starting his own weather station and letting you use his Vantage Pro in your setup to see if a new one would cure the issue. At least that would narrow it down from (or to) some outside interference.

Fingers crossed for you, buddy!
 [cheers1]
Herb

xairbusdriver

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Re: *Sniff* . . da' darn "mellar-drama" continues!!
« Reply #42 on: March 28, 2015, 02:44:08 AM »
Quote
maybe you could talk some friend into starting his own weather station and letting you use his
I'll volunteer Herb's! I'm just a newcomer wanting to help you guys out... 8) :o ;D I'll even see if I can get a FedEx discount for you! (oops. there's no "You're Welcome" smilie! :'( )
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And the United States = The Banana system


Blicj11

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Re: *Sniff* . . da' darn "mellar-drama" continues!!
« Reply #43 on: March 28, 2015, 03:24:10 AM »
Let us know Edouard. I know this has been frustrating for you.
Blick


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Repaired board swapped in. (Re: Darn "mellar-drama" continues!!)
« Reply #44 on: March 28, 2015, 11:29:15 PM »
Dear xairbusdiver, Herb, Blick, and WeatherCat subscribers to this darn "mellar-drama,"

I was a terrific struggle but clean living once more prevailed and the board Davis repaired is now doing the station transmitting.  It was a struggle to get the board out of the ISS enclosure I had to put it into so that Davis would be willing to work on it and put it into the 6382 enclosure that the station now uses.  I changed the station transmitter ID from 3 to 7.  The console is now retransmitting on ID 8.  So that should help if there is some radio frequency interference.  But I found the 123 battery all the way down to 3.05 Volts in just 5 days from 3.19 volts.  So there can be no doubt, there some sort of power switching weirdness going on.  I don't know why, but the battery is definitely getting used even when plugged into the AC.

Stay tuned . . . . .

Edouard