Trixology
General Category => General Computing/Macintosh => Topic started by: Steve on May 04, 2019, 05:47:02 PM
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My AirPort Extreme with Time Machine occasionally acts up, not talking to my Mac, but still functioning as a wifi router. A couple of years ago, I replaced the hard drive in it. Now that seems to run extremely slow. I can't even delete an old backup from my daughter's old computer off of it. So I know that one of these days, It is going to have the same fate as John's did recently, with a complete failure.
I've looked at Mesh Networks before, but not too seriously. Now the have come down in price, and I might need to get something one of these days. So I thought I'd ask my fellow WeatherCatters for any advice. One advantage that I see right way is having a node nearer my wifi outside camera. So I might be able to increase the quality settings on those. I could also get my network printer, scanner, and Philips hub out from under my desk, and parked in another room, plugged into a node.
Who's got one. or who's looked at them and can offer their thoughts?
Thanks,
Steve
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Dear Steve and WeatherCat sys-admins,
Sorry to hear that you are having problems with your network as well.
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I've looked at Mesh Networks before, but not too seriously. Now the have come down in price, and I might need to get something one of these days.
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Unfortunately, I certainly cannot help you since I didn't even know what these things were until a few minutes ago! However, in my attempt to be a quick study I found these two reviews from respective computer magazines. Here is one from TechRadar:
https://www.techradar.com/news/best-wireless-mesh-routers (https://www.techradar.com/news/best-wireless-mesh-routers)
Here is one from PC Magazine:
https://www.pcmag.com/roundup/350795/the-best-wi-fi-mesh-network-systems (https://www.pcmag.com/roundup/350795/the-best-wi-fi-mesh-network-systems)
I do hope another WeatherCatter can provide you with some personal experience, but here is some information. At least I learned something! ;D
Cheers, Edouard [cheers1]
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I'll check your linkz, Edouard. Hopefully I can learn how this is something other than marketing speak for WIFI repeaters.
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Thank you, Edouard.
I had already read the PC Mag review (as well as a bunch of other "best" reviews. I hadn't seen the Tech Radar one, yet. Only enough, although all have been written in the last three to four months, they all have drastically different order of "best." For instance, the Google version is #1 on the Tech Radar list, but at or near the bottom in others. Eero isn't on most of the reviews, but has Amazon's highest user rating, and is the one most oft listed by people in comments. (Eero was what Apple sold in the Apple Store until Amazon bought them. Many folks thought Apple was "this" close to buying Eero to replace the Airport.)
In addition to the occasional Airport Extreme problems, this is a good time to at least look at updating our network. I have to move all of my network and computer hardware elsewhere in the house by next Monday. We are doing a complete kitchen remodel, knocking out a couple of wall, and blowing the end of our house out 8 feet. So where I am sitting right now, will soon be completely open to the outside, only protected by a sheet of plastic while construction is happening. So, while everything is torn apart on my system, I might as well look at options. I'm even considering going with a network connected option for the Davis console.
(As an aside, I am in competition with John for the blithering idiot award. I didn't discover until about an hour ago that I could plug my older model AirPort Extreme in upstairs in an empty bedroom, and then plug my network printer and Philips hub into it. I've had the new one since 2013, and could have done this all along without having to have that big printer on the side table in our dining room...)
Thanks for the input!
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Good input guys.
Steve, this topic has taken up quite a bit of my time recently. And I almost bought one to replace my Apple hardware network. I really liked the Netgear Orbi system, did lots of homework on it, talked to their pre-sales dept, and got very close to purchasing. There is a lot to like about mesh. They are simple and each mesh device is part of a single wireless network that shares the same SSID and password. By the way, the pre-sales call was ok. The agent I got was knowledgable, and spoke excellent English, but he had a very hard time understanding my English. In the end I decided not to go with a mesh solution, primarily for two reasons:
- You are a bit limited in what you can use the ethernet ports for on the nodes. You can plug in a printer or a game console but not every kind of drive and often not a NAS device. They had no idea if a Davis WeatherLink IP data Logger would work in the port or not, but I suspect it would. I love wireless, but for now, cabled ethernet is still the fastest way to do some things.
- The company that installed my home security system and entertainment center has had enough trouble with mesh networks, they are still advising people to go with rock solid enterprise-light wireless.
For what I want to do, and for a bit of future-proofing, I took their advice and went with a Ubiquiti solution (router rather than mesh). I'll share some details with you via email.
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For what I want to do, and for a bit of future-proofing, I took their advice and went with a Ubiquiti solution (router rather than mesh). I'll share some details with you via email.
Thank you so much! Future-proofing is always the best route (r) ;) When the kitchen is getting done, I'm running a peice of pvc through the base of the cabinets, from the dining room (where the phone/internet modem is located) through two walls, to the family room, where the Apple TV is located. Then run Cat 5 to the ATV for future 4K feed.
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Blicj11 and all mesh wireless WCers:
I currently use an ORBI wireless mesh network with absolutely NO issues. Has been in service for over a year; updated regularly and works perfectly. Now with prices falling? It is TOTALLY worth the outlay.
I have my 27in MAC running on it with zero problems, WeatherCat is seamless. We have a whole house generator, so even if we lose power? The modem and ORBI stay up. Mine is the main unit with two satellites and it covers
the entire 2300 sq ft house, the garage and just about all of the 3 acres of land we have.
I can not say enough good things about it and highly recommend it. Internet service is 100mbps with Charter and will be upgrading speed to 400mbps soon.
Feel free to ask me any questions and I will answer as best I can!
Jenna
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Thank you, Jenna!
Question: Have you ever had your cable service go off since having the Orbi? If so, did everything else work properly? I'm asking, because on an Eero review, a guy had his cable cut by a contractor, and all functionality of his Eero network stopped. Apparently the internal network relies on having an external connection! That's just bizarre to have as a requirement. His Ring doorbell didn't work, his thermostats, streaming from his computer to Apple TV didn't work, nothing, for apparently several days.
We have Time Warner Cable Spectrum, and on occasion it goes out for a few minutes to a few hours at a time. With my current (and any logical) network setup, everything inside my house is still connected to each other.
Yank your cable off of your modem and see what happens. ;)
I'm sure I'll have questions as I investigate further, and see what John sends me. Thank you,
Steve
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Thank you, Jenna!
Question: Have you ever had your cable service go off since having the Orbi? If so, did everything else work properly? I'm asking, because on an Eero review, a guy had his cable cut by a contractor, and all functionality of his Eero network stopped. Apparently the internal network relies on having an external connection! That's just bizarre to have as a requirement. His Ring doorbell didn't work, his thermostats, streaming from his computer to Apple TV didn't work, nothing, for apparently several days.
I can verify this; we lost power and everything stayed connected-however there was a hiccup as the generator does not kick in for 45 seconds of no power. We have lost Spectrum Internet service a total of ONCE in the year we have been here in the hinterlands of Downeast Maine, and yes, it all went down, even though there was power to the house.
We have Time Warner Cable Spectrum, and on occasion it goes out for a few minutes to a few hours at a time. With my current (and any logical) network setup, everything inside my house is still connected to each other.
Yank your cable off of your modem and see what happens. ;)
I'm sure I'll have questions as I investigate further, and see what John sends me. Thank you,
Steve
Pleasure is mine and finally glad to offer something that may help others on this forum. Countless times others have spoken up or helped me solve an issue. Glad to reciprocate!
Jenna
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Finally found a link that explains the major difference between our 'normal' (ad-hoc) wifi networks and a mesh one. How-to Geek: What Are Mesh Wi-Fi Systems, and How Do They Work? (https://www.howtogeek.com/290418/what-are-mesh-wi-fi-systems-and-how-do-they-work/)
Traditional Wi-Fi extenders can only communicate with your main router, and if you set up multiple Wi-Fi extenders, they usually can?t communicate with each other. However, mesh Wi-Fi units can talk to whichever unit they want in order to provide the best coverage possible to all of your devices, which is a huge benefit.
This site lists several "advantages" of a mesh network, very few of which seem pertinent to a single-family home, in my opinion, anyway. How Stuff Works (https://computer.howstuffworks.com/how-wireless-mesh-networks-work.htm)
The main problem I see is the widely varying decisions by all the manufacturers and the problems that may cause the unwary purchaser. The wide variety of port number and types may be especially important for WC users. Perhaps the problems reported by WC users could become a topic in the WC Wiki?
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Dear X-Air, Steve, Blick, Jenna, and WeatherCat faithful,
. . . . .
Pleasure is mine and finally glad to offer something that may help others on this forum. Countless times others have spoken up or helped me solve an issue. Glad to reciprocate!
Thanks Jenna! Everybody contributing is what makes a forum work! ThU5:-)
Finally found a link that explains the major difference between our 'normal' (ad-hoc) wifi networks and a mesh one.
Thanks for the link X-Air. I had imagined something like this, but the explanation tied up all the loose ends for me.
This site lists several "advantages" of a mesh network, very few of which seem pertinent to a single-family home, in my opinion, anyway.
I think that for the vast majority of homeowners and apartment dwellers you are on the mark. It requires a relatively large space before a mesh WiFi router becomes worthwhile. However, if you are like Jenna and Steve with the need of that amount of coverage, the mesh design is clearly superior to trying to use WiFi repeaters. At our house a single WiFi station is more than adequate. That's true in part because we have a substantial Ethernet network. So most streaming happens over Ethernet instead of WiFi.
As is true all over the world: Different strokes (and gadgets) for different folks! :)
Cheers, Edouard [cheers1]
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This is all good feedback everyone. Thanks for taking the time to share. There is a lot to like about mesh networks. I'll share with you a few more thoughts to consider.
Each mesh manufacturer has its own proprietary tweak so nobody's stuff plays with the other guy's stuff. Remind you of Apple? Anyway, if you go the mesh route, you need to buy from a larger company and one more likely to stay in the game, like Netgear, Eero, or Linksys. Although, Apple's exit from home networking reminds us that this large company route is not always the best way to go.
The main reason I ultimately decided to go with a non-mesh installation is that I have ethernet cabled back to my router from each level of the home and a cabled wireless network leaves all of the bandwidth available for my wireless devices. And the Ubuquiti hardware I used is not a traditional router extender network. The router doesn't do anything but route. The wireless network is created separately by access point devices that create a wireless network that eliminate dead spots in the home and extends outside just as Jennajon described is provided by the Orbi. They also do not require separate device names or passwords like the traditional router/extender networks. I have most of the advantages of a mesh network without any of the disadvantages and I have retained a fully functional router for things like port forwarding and DHCP reservations and other things that only a router geek could love.
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I use google wifi and it seems to be working well for me. I am using 3 nodes. It replaced 2 apple xtreem routers
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Here's a very Mac-like brand (except the hardware looks like something out of a si-fi movie).
Synology RT2600ac (extremely capable router all by itself)
Synology MR2200ac (add-on mesh router) for increased coverage
Available at the superb B&H with free shipping and no tax (www.bhphotovideo.com (http://www.bhphotovideo.com))
https://9to5mac.com/2017/02/28/synology-rt2600ac-router-airport-extreme-replacement-top-15-features-video/ (https://9to5mac.com/2017/02/28/synology-rt2600ac-router-airport-extreme-replacement-top-15-features-video/)
https://9to5mac.com/2018/10/12/synology-mr2200ac-mesh-router-launch/ (https://9to5mac.com/2018/10/12/synology-mr2200ac-mesh-router-launch/)
Edit: A reader just pointed out I had a typo on the nomenclature of the add-on mesh router.
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A long overdue update!
John and I had several offline conversations about his Ubiquiti setup. I really wanted to go that route, and had all of the components in my Amazon cart not once, but twice. But I didn't pull the trigger. It is an expensive option (well, they all are), and I was overwhelmed reading through the manuals, user forums, and help sections. Ubiquiti has a stellar customer service reputation, but I felt similar limitations as I had when comparing tuning my 1958 MG with mechanics tools and then finding tuning my 2002 Subaru WRX required a teenage kid with a computer... [banghead]
So, I didn't do anything. Then, on Amazon Prime Day, the Eero was on sale at 50% of regular price. So I bought three Eero Pro units.
As noted above, I was already running Cat 6 cable while our walls were opened up for our remodel. On the Airport setup, I had the base station hardwired to the modem, and *everything* else was on wifi. That included three Macs, two iPhones, two iPads, Deb's Watch, Apple TV, Ring doorbell and chime, two Sonos speakers, three Echo Dots, Philips Hue Hub (and it's 8-10 bulbs), GE Range, four Sharx IP WebCams, an HP printer, a Roku, an Amazon Fire Stick, and a Withings scale. Probably something else, too.
Now, the first Eero is connected to my ISP's Modem/Router/Telephone combination unit (with the router in *bridge* mode.) The Apple TV, and second Eero are hardwired to the first, and myiMac, HP printer, and Philips Hub are hardwired to the second Eero. Once the electrical is finished in our remodel, the third Eero will be hardwired to the first, as well.
I have wiring in place to power at least two of the Sharx cameras via PoE, and an option to add a fourth hardwired Eero (or a PoE switch) and then hardwire the Fire Stick and one more of the Sharx cameras. Plus wiring to switch where the Spectrum cable comes in, and move the first Eero there, if we turn the downstairs bedroom into an office. So, a lot less relying on wifi than previously.
Setting up the Eero system was a snap, as was adding the second and third unit. I had all three up and running in under 30 minutes. I set up the Eero network using the same network name and password as the Airport network, so almost all of the wifi devices recognized the new network right away. A couple devices required a reboot, and then connected without a hitch. I did forget to open a port for accessing SecuritySpy from outside my network, and one of the four Sharx cameras isn't accessible from outside the network for some reason.(Oddly enough, it was the only one that I messed with it's settings, so I'm blaming it on something I did and haven't sorted yet.)
Our internet connection has been flakey for the past few weeks, with occasional outages of a few minutes. I sure hope it isn't something of mine behind a new wall! But it was doing this, albeit less frequently; before switching to the Eero. And, as noted in previous posts, when the Eero unit loses access to the Internet, the internal network also stops working. This is a stupid way to have a network operate! The Airport network continued internally when the Internet was off, so there shouldn't be a need for an outside connection on the Eero (and its ilk.) Hopefully, this won't be problematic and something they can change in a firmware update down the road.
I'll add to this as I continue experimenting. Thanks to all of you for your input and suggestions, and a huge thank you to John for the long emails and phone calls helping me better understand what I was trying to do.
Steve
(The Living Room Eero is offline right now, because they are cutting flooring in there, so I moved it for the day.)
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Dear Steve and WeatherCat network admins,
Thanks for the update. Indeed this has become quite an undertaking!
26 Connected Devices
[wink] . . . . I see your problem right there! What you need is still MORE devices!! . . . . [biggrin]
Cheers, Edouard [cheers1]
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Steve:
Thanks for sharing the details in your update. I have been offline for 14 days and am just getting around to reading what I missed. Except for no wireless network when there Internet connection is lost, it sounds to me like you have done really well. Having the ethernet cabled to the EERO units will be a huge improvement over the old Apple WiFi. One of our sons is installing Orbi at his home today. Keep us in the loop as you make new discoveries.
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Here's a very Mac-like brand (except the hardware looks like something out of a si-fi movie).
Synology RT2600ac (extremely capable router all by itself)
Synology MR2200ac (add-on mesh router) for increased coverage
Available at the superb B&H with free shipping and no tax (www.bhphotovideo.com (http://www.bhphotovideo.com))
https://9to5mac.com/2017/02/28/synology-rt2600ac-router-airport-extreme-replacement-top-15-features-video/ (https://9to5mac.com/2017/02/28/synology-rt2600ac-router-airport-extreme-replacement-top-15-features-video/)
https://9to5mac.com/2018/10/12/synology-mr2200ac-mesh-router-launch/ (https://9to5mac.com/2018/10/12/synology-mr2200ac-mesh-router-launch/)
Edit: A reader just pointed out I had a typo on the nomenclature of the add-on mesh router.
I have another post running as I move to a brand new iMac.
Like you, I think it is also time to move away from my APE from Apple.
I think the Synology router you mention is the way I will go.
Perhaps it is just me, but I won't use anything associated with google. I don't trust their devices and their biz model is all about collecting data.
They bought Eero so I won't be using that.
I also want a router with a USB port, and the router mentioned has that.
Just my 2 cents...
Rich
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Perhaps it is just me, but I won't use anything associated with google. I don't trust their devices and their biz model is all about collecting data.
They bought Eero so I won't be using that.
Yep, I'm in the same camp.
Are you going with the RT2600ac plus the MR2200ac mesh option or just multiples of the MR2200ac?
Start a thread on your Synology equipment and keep the members apprised of your progress. Personally, I think it's a great replacement for Apple's gear when the time comes. Plus, the Synology Router Manager software is some of the best in the industry, usable by a network neophyte in the basic mode or suitable for advanced tweaking...network management, parental controls, security and a ton of other stuff. But layering up a bunch of filtering reduces throughput speed.
Lastly, if you haven't run across it yet, spend some time on the Synology forum (https://forum.synology.com/enu/ (https://forum.synology.com/enu/)). Don't let the "problems" worry you, majority are from folks who know very little about networking and think it would be neat to try out all the advanced features available in the router software without really understanding what they are doing. As you'll note, most are resolved satisfactorily.
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Oh, and I forgot to mention, as a result of the 2018 SCOTUS decision (South Dakota v. Wayfair) on out-of-state sales taxes, B&H is now phasing in sales taxes for out-of-state (NY) purchases. So you may no longer get that bit of help in NH.
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B&H offers a way to purchase from their website (or store) and get your state sales tax instantly refunded. Basically it is a credit card that can only be used to purchase from B&H, using the same bank that Amazon uses for their store card (Synchrony). B&H charges you the sales tax and then they instantly credit it back on that card so at the end of the monthly cycle, you are only paying for your purchases net of sales tax. They remit sales tax to your state, as required by law, so the customers are the real winners here.
If you are a B&H customer and your state requires them to charge sales tax (not all states require this yet), this will benefit you.
Similarly, and off topic, Amazon also has a store card that can only be used on Amazon and refunds to you 5% of what you buy from them using their card. It's called Amazon Prime Store Card (and is not the same thing as Amazon Prime Rewards Visa Signature, which they also offer). If you buy regularly from Amazon (and who doesn't?), you should be using their Prime Store Card.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/credit-cards
https://www.amazon.com/Synchrony-Bank-Amazon-com-Store-Card/dp/B008A0GNA8/ref=lp_3561432011_1_2?s=financial&ie=UTF8&qid=1566589392&sr=1-2
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[thermo]
Right now I am trying to Migrate to a new iMac....Once that horror is completed I will go back to the synology purchase.
Not sure, mesh or not.....not sure I need it...but will work that later.
As for tax free NH....ANYONE who tries to charge me sales tax loses my sale.
Rich
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AppleInsider on Synology:
?Right now, the Synology MR2200AC is our favorite for a mesh router system.?
https://apple.news/AWXKBSQznSzq6MZqPR_4Rbw (https://apple.news/AWXKBSQznSzq6MZqPR_4Rbw)
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Perhaps it is just me, but I won't use anything associated with google. I don't trust their devices and their biz model is all about collecting data.
They bought Eero so I won't be using that.
Just a clarification: Amazon bought Eero, not Google. One of several related articles: https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/12/18261081/amazon-buys-eero-official-keeps-privacy-policy
There was hope that Apple would buy Eero, as Apple Stores used to carry the Eero product along side Airports.
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Steve:
Thanks for sharing the details in your update. I have been offline for 14 days and am just getting around to reading what I missed. Except for no wireless network when there Internet connection is lost, it sounds to me like you have done really well. Having the ethernet cabled to the EERO units will be a huge improvement over the old Apple WiFi. One of our sons is installing Orbi at his home today. Keep us in the loop as you make new discoveries.
Apparently, that was old information I was relaying. According to a recent answer to that very question on Reddit by one of the owners, Internet interruption does not effect the LAN unless the hub Eero is reboot. Rebooting causes it to phone home, and if it can't, it doesn't create a network. Any other Eero on the LAN can be rebooted; just not the one connected to the modem.
I am currently in the process of setting up and hardwiring two new Sharx non-wifi IP cameras (HTNC2404TM and HTNC2404M) from their latest sale. Gonna need another spool of cat 6 cable!!
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You can't have too much CAT5 hanging around. Sooner or later, you will need some.
My son gave up on the Orbi install and had AT&T (his fiber optic provider) come and install a wired network extender at no cost. Solved his problem without having to buy anything.
I just entered the 21st century at our place. We are now the proud payers of a bill for fiber optic. Yes, indeed fellow WeatherCatters, my local phone company ran fiber right up the mountain to our front door. Hallelujah! We can now stream and use our iPhones over Wifi.
"They have the Internet on computers now." Homer Simpson
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Too bad, I was curious for a first hand report on the Orbi.
We have TimeWarner Cable Spectrumfor our cable/internet/landline provider. Fastest available at my address is 100Mb/s, although speed tests sometimes show faster. They offer 300 Mb/s as a premium, but it is not available for me.
You can't have too much CAT5 hanging around. Sooner or later, you will need some.
My son gave up on the Orbi install and had AT&T (his fiber optic provider) come and install a wired network extender at no cost. Solved his problem without having to buy anything.
I just entered the 21st century at our place. We are now the proud payers of a bill for fiber optic. Yes, indeed fellow WeatherCatters, my local phone company ran fiber right up the mountain to our front door. Hallelujah! We can now stream and use our iPhones over Wifi.
"They have the Internet on computers now." Homer Simpson
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Dear Blick, Steve, and WeatherCat types "boldly going where no WeatherCatter has gone before!" . . . . . [biggrin]
I just entered the 21st century at our place. We are now the proud payers of a bill for fiber optic.
. . . . .
[wink] . . . . . Yeah, but can you pay the bill for your fiber optic line - online? If so, does paying it on an ultra-fast network make the price any easier to swallow?!?? . . . lol(1)
Cheers, Edouard [cheers1]
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Hi all,
I just saw this - late to the party!
I have been using an Eero system for over two months now and it is wonderful. I got a new Internet provider and we get 300 mbps download, which in our rural area is super compared to the 3 to 5 mbps with my former provider! As a result I wanted to up my old Apple network, but found some things conflicted with my providers new equipment - an Eero system. I bought one Eero range extender and viola - well over 100 mbps even at the far end of a ranch house! I get 290 mbps in my Gallery next to the room with the router.
I also have my Davis Weatherlink (I have a second console which goes direct to the Internet through the Weatherlink in addition to the main console wired to my computer) reaching the Internet through my old Apple Express which acts as an Internet access point.
I love the new system and the fact I haven't touched it in two months is testament to the stability.
Cheers,
Bill
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Dear Bill and WeatherCat net admins,
Hi all,
I just saw this - late to the party!
I have been using an Eero system for over two months now and it is wonderful.
. . . . .
Thanks for sharing your experiences with Eero. Every bit of experience enriches our community.
Cheers, Edouard [cheers1]
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Thanks for the report Bill. It always helps to know that a WeatherCatter somewhere has implemented something that works.